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Thread: Lactate Threshold Training

  1. #21
    Administrator Charlie Francis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AUT_71
    Maybe it's interesting to you - a sample workout schedule of an Austrian trainer which made his athlete run 400m in 46.12 folliwing this program.
    (it's just "Meso-Cycle 5 and 6 taken out of a years program - 1 to 3 led to indoor season)

    After week 24 special endurance was covered by competitions only, so would makt hte start of Comp Phase...

    Just for discussion - on the other hand I heard his athletes usually suffered from stress fractions sooner or later...

    Just for explanation:
    LP= rest between runs
    SP= rest between sets

    NI can be I5 (50-65%) or I4 (65-75%)
    probably you could say I4 is extensive Tempo according to CFTS
    I3 75-90%
    I2 90-85%
    I1 95-100%

    Some people might use mmol/L, but the trainer who created that schedule said it's far better to watch %age of speed for same reasons like Charlie.

    If I got it right CFTS would mean you train in I4 (Tempo) and I1 (Speed) only and get your lactate tolerance with I1 runs of increasing distance, too.
    Interesting. I had a rather heated debate in your country with a former East German Sport Scientist (SS for short), who was working there, about this whole topic and it created a stir with your best 400m guy at the time.
    SS was adamant about lactic tolerance and was prescribing workouts to generate the effect, without regard to the conditions required for high quality Special End- as outlined to me by his own countryman, Horst Hilla (the father of the EG sprint program). When I pointed this out, he claimed that I didn't know anything about Hilla's methods, even though he did admit that he'd never met Hilla himself!
    This guy didn't let the fact that he was from Rowing and had no background in sprinting whatsoever stand in the way of his opinion, and my objections were met with a shift by him from English to German, in which language he explained away my qualification to speak on the subject by telling the group that there will always be lucky coaches who get athletes like Ben and Flo Jo who will succeed no matter what!
    Well, in my usual diplomatic manner, I suggested an act he could perform on himself and the horse he rode in on.
    First Question: What must be done to improve???
    First Answer: Move the Special Endurance bar ever higher!
    Second Question: What else must be done?
    Second Answer: There isn't anything else!
    That said, you must create the overall conditions in the training plan that will allow SE to continue to advance.
    Now, where were we?

    I'm not trying to be a wise guy. I want to know what you're trying to accomplish and why it can't be accomplished by the SE itself. In other words, in a way that will tell you directly that what you're doing is advancing the cause, not setting it back.
    Tempo is a supporting means for SE, first and formost, and, if you view it that way, you should be able to come a satisfactory conclusion on the pace required.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Dazed
    Actually I'm not insane, nor am I an idiot, so don't talk to me like one particularly when you don't know what you're talking about yourself.

    Lactic threshold is not the amount of lactic you can tolerate. It is the point at which the aerobic system is not efficient enough to complete the break down of pyruvate resulting in the rapid build up of lactic acid.

    This is why tempo work (both extensive and intensive, although in a highly trained athlete there will really be little distinction) is very useful for developing lactic THRESHOLD. Because tempo workouts have such a high aerobic compontent to them they increase mitochondrial efficiency and improve oxygen use meaning that pyruvate can be broken down at higher intensities, ie: an increase in the Lactic threshold.

    BTW I am a long sprinter myself.
    "Both extensive and intensive, although in a highly trained athlete there will really be litte distinction"

    Can you expand on this statement Dazed, I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying that because the athlete is in such good shape, they can recover very quickly from intensive tempo, and therefore it serves the same purpose as extensive tempo?

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex
    "Both extensive and intensive, although in a highly trained athlete there will really be litte distinction"

    Can you expand on this statement Dazed, I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying that because the athlete is in such good shape, they can recover very quickly from intensive tempo, and therefore it serves the same purpose as extensive tempo?
    You hit the nail on the head. As a long sprinter adapts to the extensive tempo and improves their aerobic capacity they will have to decrease the recovery and/or increase the intensity in order to maintain steady improvement. A personal example is a tempo workout I have called "Goal Posts". Likewise as the athlete adapts to extensice and intensive tempo combined, intensive tempo will become easier and more aerobic in nature and easier to recover between.

    Essentially a set of goal posts is 10x100m on a soccerfield where you run from one goal post at one end of the field to the corresponding one at the other end, recovery is walking accross to the other goal post before running back to the end of the field where you started. Like so (sorry i had to expose you to my artistic side )
    PHP Code:
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    This is done in trainers (not flats) and you usually get around 30 seconds recovery by the time you get back to start running. Start is walk onto the line and go.
    Depending on what the goal is for the session we do between 1 and 3 sets with 5 min rest between sets. (1 is really just a loossener in the week of a comp, 2 sets is still a reasonable work out but has great recovery benefits, 3 sets are a tough aerobic workout that make you feel as though the life has been sucked from your legs)

    When I started this in the GPP I began doing this workouts the times were between 13 seconds and 13.7 seconds for 3 sets, the next session averaged just under 13 seconds, and gradually progressed to the first 2 sets being under 12 seconds and the 3rd set being under 11.5 using the same recovery and feeling exactly the same as the first time i did this session - no burn to speak of, just a really empty feeling in your legs like they've been suffocated.

    This has made other intensive tempo sessions extremely aerobic in nature and the recovery has had to be dropped significantly and times are well ahead of where I expected them to be...

    Esentially It's about starting conservatively and allowing your body to dictate progression. Too many people start by biting off more than they can chew then wonder why they're not going anywhere.

  4. #24
    Administrator Charlie Francis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dazed
    You hit the nail on the head. As a long sprinter adapts to the extensive tempo and improves their aerobic capacity they will have to decrease the recovery and/or increase the intensity in order to maintain steady improvement. A personal example is a tempo workout I have called "Goal Posts". Likewise as the athlete adapts to extensice and intensive tempo combined, intensive tempo will become easier and more aerobic in nature and easier to recover between.

    Essentially a set of goal posts is 10x100m on a soccerfield where you run from one goal post at one end of the field to the corresponding one at the other end, recovery is walking accross to the other goal post before running back to the end of the field where you started. Like so (sorry i had to expose you to my artistic side )
    PHP Code:
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    This is done in trainers (not flats) and you usually get around 30 seconds recovery by the time you get back to start running. Start is walk onto the line and go.
    Depending on what the goal is for the session we do between 1 and 3 sets with 5 min rest between sets. (1 is really just a loossener in the week of a comp, 2 sets is still a reasonable work out but has great recovery benefits, 3 sets are a tough aerobic workout that make you feel as though the life has been sucked from your legs)

    When I started this in the GPP I began doing this workouts the times were between 13 seconds and 13.7 seconds for 3 sets, the next session averaged just under 13 seconds, and gradually progressed to the first 2 sets being under 12 seconds and the 3rd set being under 11.5 using the same recovery and feeling exactly the same as the first time i did this session - no burn to speak of, just a really empty feeling in your legs like they've been suffocated.

    This has made other intensive tempo sessions extremely aerobic in nature and the recovery has had to be dropped significantly and times are well ahead of where I expected them to be...

    Esentially It's about starting conservatively and allowing your body to dictate progression. Too many people start by biting off more than they can chew then wonder why they're not going anywhere.
    How often is this done? What else is happening at this point? For how many weeks will this continue? Have you done this before?

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Dazed
    You hit the nail on the head. As a long sprinter adapts to the extensive tempo and improves their aerobic capacity they will have to decrease the recovery and/or increase the intensity in order to maintain steady improvement. A personal example is a tempo workout I have called "Goal Posts". Likewise as the athlete adapts to extensice and intensive tempo combined, intensive tempo will become easier and more aerobic in nature and easier to recover between.

    Essentially a set of goal posts is 10x100m on a soccerfield where you run from one goal post at one end of the field to the corresponding one at the other end, recovery is walking accross to the other goal post before running back to the end of the field where you started. Like so (sorry i had to expose you to my artistic side )
    PHP Code:
                    ___
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    |__|___
           
    |   ^   V  |
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    V  |
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    V  |
           |   ^   
    V  |
           |   ^
    ___V  |
           |
    ___|___|__
    This is done in trainers (not flats) and you usually get around 30 seconds recovery by the time you get back to start running. Start is walk onto the line and go.
    Depending on what the goal is for the session we do between 1 and 3 sets with 5 min rest between sets. (1 is really just a loossener in the week of a comp, 2 sets is still a reasonable work out but has great recovery benefits, 3 sets are a tough aerobic workout that make you feel as though the life has been sucked from your legs)

    When I started this in the GPP I began doing this workouts the times were between 13 seconds and 13.7 seconds for 3 sets, the next session averaged just under 13 seconds, and gradually progressed to the first 2 sets being under 12 seconds and the 3rd set being under 11.5 using the same recovery and feeling exactly the same as the first time i did this session - no burn to speak of, just a really empty feeling in your legs like they've been suffocated.

    This has made other intensive tempo sessions extremely aerobic in nature and the recovery has had to be dropped significantly and times are well ahead of where I expected them to be...

    Esentially It's about starting conservatively and allowing your body to dictate progression. Too many people start by biting off more than they can chew then wonder why they're not going anywhere.
    I don't understand how's it take 30 seconds to walk 24 feet. Couldn't you walk the whole endline?

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Dazed
    You hit the nail on the head. As a long sprinter adapts to the extensive tempo and improves their aerobic capacity they will have to decrease the recovery and/or increase the intensity in order to maintain steady improvement. A personal example is a tempo workout I have called "Goal Posts". Likewise as the athlete adapts to extensice and intensive tempo combined, intensive tempo will become easier and more aerobic in nature and easier to recover between.

    Essentially a set of goal posts is 10x100m on a soccerfield where you run from one goal post at one end of the field to the corresponding one at the other end, recovery is walking accross to the other goal post before running back to the end of the field where you started. Like so (sorry i had to expose you to my artistic side )
    PHP Code:
                    ___
           ____
    |__|___
           
    |   ^   V  |
           |   ^   
    V  |
           |   ^   
    V  |
           |   ^   
    V  |
           |   ^   
    V  |
           |   ^
    ___V  |
           |
    ___|___|__
    This is done in trainers (not flats) and you usually get around 30 seconds recovery by the time you get back to start running. Start is walk onto the line and go.
    Depending on what the goal is for the session we do between 1 and 3 sets with 5 min rest between sets. (1 is really just a loossener in the week of a comp, 2 sets is still a reasonable work out but has great recovery benefits, 3 sets are a tough aerobic workout that make you feel as though the life has been sucked from your legs)

    When I started this in the GPP I began doing this workouts the times were between 13 seconds and 13.7 seconds for 3 sets, the next session averaged just under 13 seconds, and gradually progressed to the first 2 sets being under 12 seconds and the 3rd set being under 11.5 using the same recovery and feeling exactly the same as the first time i did this session - no burn to speak of, just a really empty feeling in your legs like they've been suffocated.

    This has made other intensive tempo sessions extremely aerobic in nature and the recovery has had to be dropped significantly and times are well ahead of where I expected them to be...

    Esentially It's about starting conservatively and allowing your body to dictate progression. Too many people start by biting off more than they can chew then wonder why they're not going anywhere.
    Thanks Dazed. So essentially that workout is 3*10*100m w/30s between reps and 5 minutes between sets, right? And also, what's the difference between trainers and flats? What you say about progressing quickly with a great aerobic base is true. A workout I've been doing lately is 6*200m w/4 minutes rest, in one month I've knocked a second off the average time for that workout. At some point I plan to cut the rest interval down, gradually, to about 3 minutes or so. I'm excited to think of where I'll be in July if I continue progressing with this type of work.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Francis
    How often is this done? What else is happening at this point? For how many weeks will this continue? Have you done this before?
    Been doing this work out in different forms on and off since I was 11. I do it once a week. I'll be moving down to two sets shortly.

    At the moment I'm also doing more traditional tempo, such as 10x200m off 90sec rest, hills 2 days a week over 200m (Day 1 of hills), 150m and 80m (Day 2 of hills), over distance such as 2x600m in 1:24 w/ 8min r/r (I'm moving down to 1:21, this week tho) Endurance work at 350m, and weights 3 days a week. I can send you my diary if you're curious.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by elars21
    I don't understand how's it take 30 seconds to walk 24 feet. Couldn't you walk the whole endline?
    LOL, I see what you mean. It usually takes 30m or so to slow down. When I started doing this session it wasn't an issue though lol.

  9. #29
    so if elite sprinters were to do tempo, it really would be intensive cause id bet they would be running atlest low 11s. and this is why when u see any weekly scheudule of their training they have either one tempo session in the week (mo greene during gpp) or none at all.

    charlie what about ben, did he maintain tempo sessions three times a week or does it reach the time when ur recovery is so good that tempo serves no purpose no more?

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by komy
    so if elite sprinters were to do tempo, it really would be intensive cause id bet they would be running atlest low 11s. and this is why when u see any weekly scheudule of their training they have either one tempo session in the week (mo greene during gpp) or none at all.

    charlie what about ben, did he maintain tempo sessions three times a week or does it reach the time when ur recovery is so good that tempo serves no purpose no more?
    Mo Green etc are not training to run 400's etc and may not have the same aerobic capacity as a quater miler, but they do do sessions such as 12x100m in 11 seconds off limited recovery at some points of the season. I remember John Smith saying he had Mo do his GPP with his quarter milers in 98/99 'cause Mo couldn't handle the shorter recoveries later in the season - apparently it was quite messy and involved alot of vomit.

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