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Thread: Lactate Threshold Training

  1. #2031
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    Re: Lactate Threshold Training

    Understand how things played out

    The first weeks into spring break I considered GPP. Once meets started, meet days on Tuesay would be similar to KK’s 350, 300, 250, 200, 150, 100 day since kids often ran 4 races, a combination of 100, 200, 400s) Saturday meets were 1-2 races as in the past kids got burned out from excessive racing both Tuesday and Saturday. Saturday I expected kids to run quality runs as competition was high. Knowing they only had one race did lead to SB or PRs on weekend races. I left Thursday for the 200+200 type workouts and 4x150 as I felt they needed extra work on finishing the 400m. Since I only had 3 quality days a week, I had to rotate these.

    Race modeling took place during taper. I think for better 400m runners, we would do more of this during the season, even if just 1-2 runs over 100m at race model pace working on technical positions.

    During taper, we stayed away from lactic. Prior to regionals, we had a huge race stimulus as kids did either 100, 4x200, 4x100, 200 or 100, 4x200, 4x100, 4x400, or 4x200, 400, 200m, 4x400.

    State finals was a big success for the girls running 4:03 for a school record (60, 61, 61, 61 splits). The boys placed 4th, and could have been better if a runner had been 100%, but was likely 90%.

    Uncharted territory

    Two girls planned on running summer track for the AAU circuit, with national finals here in town, require little travel, just a 60 mile drive to two meets. The first meet was 4 weeks after state finals. State finals were June 1, AAU qualifers were June 29. In conversation with KitKat, here is what transpired:
    -----------------------------------
    Q from ESTI:
    “”In 4 weeks they have national qualifiers in which they would need to run a slight bit faster to advance. What would you recommend for those weeks? A mini gpp with mini transition? If gpp, what phase to focus on?
    Or just repeat transition work for 3 weeks and taper?
    Following the qualifier they will have 4 more weeks until nationals. Meets will be limited in these 2 months and those available will likely be low level.
    They have run 26.2 and 26.9 and 60.0, 60.0. Qualify requires about 58-59 which should be possible.”

    ----------------------------
    A: from KK
    Difficult to advise from afar. Will GPP help this deep I to the season. It's only like 8 weeks to nationals ?
    I'd be assessing individual needs. Some may benefit from a block of intensive tempo, but others may need to improve speed reserve so the answer there is short and long speed with good recoveries followed two weeks out by more race modelling and then into a little taper. But better to be underdone than overcooked.

    Try some descending sets: 80, 60, 40, 20 x 2 and maybe on another day a mix of sled, high skips, and then build ups sprints to 80m. That's good for power and forcing them to look for stride length by getting air time rather than extending their contact time and never approaching g triple extension anywhere near the torso.

    For mixing short and long speed to simulate the feeling and symptoms of the last half of a 400m, try 3 or 4 x 60m off 30sec all rolling starts then another 30sec "rest" before a flying 150 or preferably 200m. A couple of sets of that has benefits all round.

    ------------------------
    The week right after state finals was a big distraction week as we had prom, graduation and year end school stuff. We managed to get in a few sessions: Here is how I structured the next 3 weeks:

    Monday: 80 60 40 20 sets x 2 this week
    Tuesday: tempo
    Wed: 4x60+200 for 2 sets (recommended vs 2x200+200 to help increase turn over. 2x2x200 would be better suited for a short strider who needs to lengthen)
    Thursday: tempo:
    Friday: schedule sled/skip/sprint day but scheduled 4x150 with jog alk jog rests because of schedule conflicts, they did this on their own

    The following week was the same, except Friday we did the sled skip sprint set. It was quite hard.

    The 3rd week we had to do 4x150 again due to schedule issues.

    The taper week going into the race I was in France. Here is the sessions I prescribed them:
    Monday 2x80m at 95%
    Tuesay: 4x50 race model on turns
    Wed: tempo:
    Thur: 1x60m at 95%
    Fri: warmup
    Sat: race (was pouring rain, so bad kids ran with eyes closed often) Girls ran terrible. One advanced to nationals in the 400m

    The last phase of training

    Off until Wed July 5 when I returned.
    Fri: July 5 300, 200, 150, 100 (fast and relaxed, near max speed, 15 min recovery)
    Sunday: 2x2x200 (chose this to give her confidence since the last 3 weeks were mostly short stuff and no races. 29.3, 29.3 (rep 1 into wind). 31.2, 29.3 ( rep 1 into wind)
    Tuesday: 80-60-40-20 x 2, we also did a few EFE and some technical work using a drill I picked up from PJ in France.
    Thurs: 4x150
    Saturday: 300, 200, 150, 100
    Tues July 16: 2x2x200 (no record of times, but I beelive this was our last 2x2x200 and she ran all of them in 29s, even negative splitting the last 200m.
    Thursday: 80-60-40-20 x 2 plus technical work before
    Saturday: 300-200-100

    ------------------------------------
    Taper notes from KitKat
    While it is vital to set up the opening 100 to a timed schedule, it is just as important to work the other corners including the whip into the home straight.

    I usually started a build up run 80m before the critical stage of the turn and then work maybe for 50m around the bend.

    So to rehearse through the 200 start zone, start 70 or 80m up toward the 300 start and build a head of steam into the 200 start and maintain through to the water jump.

    The whole idea is to rehearse the mechanics on the turns: the key point of emphasis is achieving something close to triple extension on the left leg as it is under extreme pressure on each bend. The athlete must run "tall" - minimizing contact time will maximize impulse. Running with a very bent left knee is like driving a car with no air in the tyres.

    Similarly I emphasize two things in the opening 50m or so: one is the go hard like a 200m race rhythm to getting yourself rolling. But the equally important objective is to establish upright stance mechanics - essentially get the pelvis to a flat or neutral position to enable effective and efficient front as well as rear side mechanics.

    Re your question on race model king 300 by hitting only one part of the run at serious race rhythm, yes it can be used to rehearse the race but I would tend to use that during taper only if I felt the athlete was a bit underdone and psychologically a bit frail and needed to do a bit more volume just to make the athlete feel s/he had done plenty if work and would not lose fitness during the relatively long taper.

    -------------------------------------
    Our Plan

    Tuesday July 23: Tues was 11 day trial..300m..she ran 42 on a wet track.
    Wed tempo
    Thurs was 2x3x100 race model (first 100, 180-280, 150-250). We also did massage treatment and she felt really lose. She did express nervousness from lack of. 400m racing compared to school season with 2-4 400 races weekly.
    Friday did tempo + massage.

    Saturday plan would be 3x100 race model (start to 100, 180-280, 250-350). then fast/relaxed 150. (considered doing 200 race model, full recovery, 150 instead, but feel like more race model reps would be better than 1 effort over longer distance)

    sunday tempo + massage

    monday: 4x50 race model (2 into turn, 2 off the turn), 1 x 80 fast/relaxed

    tues tempo + massage

    wed off

    thur warm-up/down

    fri race: Not even close to her PR. Locked up at 350m, ran sluggish first 200m in 29 (model was 28-30).


    Final Thoughts

    I feel I have a great grasp of the high school season planning and peaking. The summer posed many challenges as meets are scarce and the distractions of summer for a teenager. I never had an athlete perform poorly in a big meet when they followed everything I asked of them, including all the massage work I did. On meet day, she was quite tight, surprisingly. This had me worried we over did the warm-up/down, She did loosen a bit during warm-up but tone was quite high to my liking.

    I’m not sure fi we should have found meets, even if they were not great competition. With a girl, I could always try to have her race boys too. The summer meets are tricky scheduling warm-ups. No exact race time is given. For her, the 400m races started at 3:30pm with the 13 year old boys and girls, then 14s, then 15-16, then her at 17-18. They are asked to be there one hour prior to race time. In meets past, they would need to be checked in at the hour before. This meet was not like that. When they called her in, she ran 15 minutes later.

    We arrived to the meet around 1pm. Did a shake massage and easy warm up. She said she felt good over and over. We did a few 50m runs in the warm up area, took 30 minute break, did a few more more. Then another 30m later she ran. I think the warm-up wasn’t great.

    With her workout times being so good, I think it must have been her warm-up/preparation that led to poor race. She was very bummed of the result. I am very proud of her. She had a great attitude, never missed a session, always did what I asked of her this summer. As a coach, to me, that can’t be measured but shows her true character.

    She is very excited for next year as she wants to break the 400m school record of 58.6.
    Last edited by ESTI; 08-04-2013 at 12:31 AM.

  2. #2032

    Re: Lactate Threshold Training

    Great posts, ESTI, lots of information to learn from!

  3. #2033
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    Re: Lactate Threshold Training

    Any more word on the necessity of cooldowns from those who brought it up and had witnessed this in some programs?

    Are they differentiating between a jogging or skipping cooldown and a stretching portion or speaking of the entire cooldown and stretching routine being unnecessary? I can sort of buy the first though am not prepared to give that up without many more examples of this, studies etc. but I, from a practical sense, don't buy into giving up the static routine afterwards (there is the research often cite and by CF as well about accelerating the recovery process by up to 4 hours by restoring baseline fiber length) yet I'm still interested in hearing more regarding opinions on this subject.

    I did read recently that among a few distance running groups there is a similar movement trending of reducing, changing or eliminating cool-downs.

  4. #2034

    Re: Lactate Threshold Training

    Hi ESTI have you considered that there might not have been enough recovery between the 300m time trial and the race modelling session, having said that the warm up did seem a bit strange, but I know what its like when meets run behind time.

  5. #2035
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    Re: Lactate Threshold Training

    Quote Originally Posted by PhilG View Post
    Hi ESTI have you considered that there might not have been enough recovery between the 300m time trial and the race modelling session, having said that the warm up did seem a bit strange, but I know what its like when meets run behind time.
    It might be possible. All workouts were done with little effort compared to previous workouts in the months before. With so many good workouts, I tend to aim at poor warm-up. In the past season with a previous taper, the stimulus was much larger (4x200,400,200,4x400). It might be that for this level more might be needed, but I certainly would rather take the less is more approach any day.

  6. #2036

    Re: Lactate Threshold Training

    Hello,

    I have read trough 50 pages of this thread and I have tried to set up a base training program for the 400m influences by kitkats recommendation.
    Can someone here give some comment on it? If it looks good?
    I have modyfied it so its more easy sessions ( 30 easy) in there beetween the hard sessions

    My pbs are
    100m:12.2
    200m:24.2
    400m.51.1
    800m.1.59

    I am more endurance type of 400m runner. My 100-200m pbs are slow compared to my 400m pb

    Here is the program:

    1:7x60m.+plyos
    2:30r
    3:6x200m. 2 min rec.+strength
    4:Rest
    5:8x80m.+plyos
    6:30r
    7:5x600m+strength

    1:30r
    2:7x100m+plyos
    3:30r
    4:3x3x300m
    5:Rest
    6:8x60m.+strenght
    7:30r

    1:4x1 min hills
    2:30r
    3:8x80m+plyos
    4:30r
    5:350, 300, 250, 200, 150, 100, 60, 50, 40, 30. slow walkback recoveries. rolling starts
    6:Rest
    7:8x80m hill sprints+strength

    1:30r
    2:7x100m+plyos
    3:30r
    4:Track fast, relaxed 300+4x60, 250+3x60, 200+2x60, & 150+1x60.+strength
    5:Rest
    6:8x60m.+plyos
    7:30r

    1:6x200m+strength
    2:30r
    3:8x80m+plyos
    4:30r
    5:300+60,50,40,30; 200+60,50,40,30; 150+60,50,40,30 (30sec rest between long rep and first short rep)+strength
    6:Rest
    7:Rest

    Rest and test week

    1:30r
    2:300m test+150m test+strenght
    3:30r
    4:30r
    5:80m test+200m test.+strength
    6:30r
    7:Rest



    REPEAT CYCLE

  7. #2037

    Re: Lactate Threshold Training

    Quote Originally Posted by BigRW View Post
    Hi,

    I'd like to ask a really specific question. I'm getting quite confused by this 6x200m session with a 2 minute recovery. I have read that people targetting 50 secs dead would try and run 6x200 in 26 seconds with a 2 minute jog across recovery

    But I have also read that Michael Johnson used to work up to 3x200 off 2 minutes in 23 - that is surely his second half pace. Am I msising something? Is the tarfget not 6 reps in second half pace..?

    Also how long would people advise that I continue this sort of session into the competition season. I'm currently coaching a guy who's run 50.8 very early season and has run recently 3x200 off 2 minutes all 25.5-25.7 then 15 mins and 37 low for 300
    His big competitions are now 6 weeks away. Would people advise continuing the 200m tempo running style work. Or should we move to 3x200 and aim for low 25s?

    Any help appreciated! And opinions!
    In 1996 MJ ran 3x200m with 1:30 rest this times: 21.4-21.2-20.1..

  8. #2038

    Re: Lactate Threshold Training

    Hi All,

    it has been almost ten years since I last posted regularly on the board. I used to train for the long jump until I was 22-23, and now with almost 30 and after many years of sendetarism I am giving a try to the 400-800. Got interested on the 800 because of being hammy/groin/speed injury prone and found a lot of parallelisms between CF's and KitKat's ideas with old school 200/400/800/1500m training.

    Somehow I had never come to read about middle distance running and make the connection between both worlds. Especially regarding the 800m which is somehow in the middle and until some years ago was dominated by mostly the 1500m guys moving down. Now with Rudisha, Amos &co you have sub 45s sprinters setting the standards with very low mileage.

    I hope that from this post you get some ideas on how to take CF and KitKat training elements and apply them to the 800m.

    Since I learnt a lot from this thread and the CF community I thing it will be nice to share the results of my research. I hope KitKat reads! I apology beforehand for many typos and grammar mistakes in this text... no time for it.

    It would help to put some light on the two schools of middle distance training methods:

    • Van Aaken, Lydiard, Daniels (long slow distance)
    • Reindell/Gerschler, Igloi, Bob Schul (interval based)


    a) Das Intervalltraining

    until the 60s most of 800/1500m etc training was "intervall" based (nowadays fancy called HIT / HIIT), with Woldemar Gerschler/Reindell being considered the fathers of it. The idea is simple, you do most of the time 100-200m runs starting the season at 18s/38s and reduce the time. For example you start with 20x200@38s and work down your way to 30s before starting with the real SE. Do that 5 times a wekk. You only start with the next rep after your heart rate hits 120BPM. The interval is the rest phase, you can jog it, walk it or even lay down. I think this is also called HIT with 1/3rd recovery (base HR 90, max 180, so 1/3rd means you start the next rep with 30bpm more than walking base HR). There are also some ideas about 2/3rd (would be 150bpm at next rep)

    Obviously intervals were the main workouts especially during "GPP", always complemented by steady state slow running or weight training (!). Later in the season high speed full recovery runs over longer distances were done, similar to SE – two/three times a week.

    Some successful athletes using the interval method:
    Roger Moens (800m WR), Gordon Pirie (5000m/10000m WRs), Josy Barthel (1500m OG champ), Karl Friedrich Haas (400m/800m OG), Rudolf Harbig (perhaps the most versatile athlete ever…), whereas trained intervall based only very late in his life… Roger Bannister, Wolodymir Kurtz,
    Coach Igloi i.e. Johnny Gray

    b) Long Slow Distance (milleage based)

    I think the Lydiard methodology should be know to most of you… or at least heard once about it. very little weights, lots of slow running during a very long GPP until SPP… somehow this method conquered most of the market since the 60s.

    Most of LSD fanatics demonize the interval based method all year round because it is supposed to produce lactate… which until the 80s and the discovery of the lactate shuttle was seen as the devil itself.

    Also if you talk to LSD guys they will say that a session like 3x8x200 @ 36 cannot work, while a long sprinter after a few months could also do that as a recovery session.

    c) it is shown that HIIT / intervals increase VO2max more than LSD in a fraction of the training time. By products are heart size increase (as any other training, btw this was the main research area of Reindell) and increased capillarity in muscles…

    d) Commonalties of IT and CFTS / KitKat

    The main commonalty of the interval based programmes is Charlie's extensive tempo. In one of his posts he mentions that it’s also suitable for middle distance runners, an 800m guy should do about 4k of volume per session. This pretty much what is said about Gerschlers’ method (10x4x100m or 3x8x200m with jogged recoveries). Biggest difference is that obviously with CFTS you do sprint and weight training in the days between, for the 800m variant (and upwards) of Gerschler you do more and more extensive tempo, intensive tempo at specific pace and easier weights.

    I think KitKats 3x3x300 with 100m jog recovery (I guess anywhere between 50 and 90s recovery) also fit well within this pattern.

    BTW Gerschlers’ method also says you have to do some steady state stuff in between and SE during “SPP”...

    e) the fast (or middle) twitch 2a dilemma

    (( i am assuming a) that this is not relevant for a type 2B monster like sub 10.50 nowadays elite sprinters and b) that we are born with a fix ammount of fiber percentage and that we can only work on hypertrophy of any type or increased oxygenation))

    When you think of a type 2a guy doing the Lydiard/Daniels “tempo” kind of stuff (like 20 minutes @ 3:20min/km pace) you don’t need to think too much to realize that it will most likely not work for most of us on this board.

    Further, the explicit idea of Lydiard/Daniels’ “long runs” (over 12 miles / 1:30h steady running) is that your slow twitch gets doomed at the end, so that you are forced to recruit fast twitch fibers for the slow running!!!! !!!! That logic implies that Lydiard kind of stuff is based on having a lot of slow twitch for moving your legs around, which has to be training with slow steady state stuff – which kinda makes sense for these kind of guys.

    Gerschler & co have shown that you can get a massive aerobic condition out of extensive tempo – and using Charlie’s logic probably without killing your type 2a fast twitch, or better said, you will use / recruit your Type2a – because of running at its’ specific pace and - get a lot of mitochondria on it in order to make it last longer or recovery faster. And thus also succeed on longer distances. With LSD you would not be recruiting them at all and relying on your scarcely present Type I a/b fibres, thus moving forward like a snail. And failing at failing.

    Further, CNS wise you will be moving around closer to race pace (for 800m). Thus better neural adaption.

    This is why I think that a lot of long sprinters moving up will fail miserably in 800m+ because you almost immediately get prescribed with long slow distance... but I am more and more convinced that it will not work!

    e) to clarify, Igloi’s and Schuls methods base mostly on intervall training but put the volume up and the intensity down, thus getting very long training sessions (and very high mileage!)

    Something very useful I learnt from Iglois' method is the usage of different running techniques during the same set as to stress different muscle groups and keep running faster for a longer period of time / avoid fatigue of certain muscle groups.

    He called it short or long swing (or fresh swing or sthg like that), so it's actually running with high frequency / quad based or low frequency, more upright, hamstring based. Interestingly enough if you take a look at many successfull 800m runners in the last 150m the running form changes - mostly to a more upright hamstring pulled style (i.e. Nigel Amos, Y. Bozakovskiy).

    f) The second biggest commonalty with CF and KitKat etc. is

    * Maximization of time spent at specific race speed

    through intervalls you can spend more time at specific 800m speed than doing i.e. 3x800 (which will kick your ass). But for a trained guy doing lets say 12x200 @ 26-28s with 1m recovery he will have been at almost race speed but with less total stress on his/her body. And probably will be able to handle a better training session the day after than the other guy since the lactate accumulation was lower.

    g) from a gut feeling the intervall training can work very well for guys coming from long sprints that want / have to move up / fast twitchers (Type 2a guys).


    h)
    A good read is the book "Running fast and Injury Free" of Gordon Pirie (free download in Google), which gives a good insight into coach Gerschler's ideas of training. BTW his numbers have to be taken cautiously, I think he exagerated a lot. But as a guideline you start the 200m runs in 38s and have to accomplish 3x8x200 and then increase progressively the speed, with training intervall should stay the same. Similarities to coach Hart anyone???

    Also in LetsRun you will find some threads about coach Igloi, Bob Schul and Gerschler.

    Also, Dr. Thomas Stöggl (Universität Salzburg) has done some interesting research on HIT for running… for some groups it showed massive increases in VO2max as well as maximal lactate levels in blood. The control group used LSD training. The LSD group also made some improvements but with way more training volume. Max lactate in blood skyrocketed for the HIT group.

    Sadly no study investigates muscle tissue composition (Type I/II), but my gut feeling is that it would explain the variance in the results.

    i) I think that for someone moving up to to the 800m you can take the extensive tempo / interval based GPP (get up to 3-4 weekly sessions) for building the aerob base while playin around with distance and recovery time / type (walk vs easy / fast jog) and simultaneously keep KitKats more demanding trainings (3x3x300, 6x200, the 3x4x150 stuff) for CNS stimulation and speed development / maintainance BUT with more easy days in between as he prescribes, since you will be running above 50km per week!!!!

    If Charlie got his ideas regarding extensive tempo from the 40s/50s intervall training we will never know...

    BR

  9. #2039
    Administrator Angela Coon's Avatar
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    Re: Lactate Threshold Training

    why don't you call me or send me a note. best, ange

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