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Thread: Lactate Threshold Training

  1. #1531
    Quote Originally Posted by Stefanie
    Does anything change if you know that the kid will stop training after high school (which I think is M's case?)
    Correct me if I'm wrong John, but you want to see her full potential until she's 18, because you know that she would probably quit afterwards, hence your "curiosity" to test her at the event that you think she is strongest
    I never read your last post before I posted mine, so you're partly answering that...
    But i'm still wondering about the "curiosity" factor I mentioned

  2. #1532
    Senior Member kitkat1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John
    KK,
    What was meant by your comment I have very little experience "training" kids. But I've "coached" a few ...it appears to be condescending. I trust I have misinterpreted it.

    My questions come to ensure I am minimising pain and long term harm while still providing adequate progression. M has already indicated that when she leaves school in 4 years time she will stop athletics to pursue her studies and passion for horses, in the meantime she will give it a decent go and I'll try and help. She may change her mind and frankly I don't care either way so long as she is happy and healthy.

    Please don't misconstrue my questions as those of a pushy parent, far from it. Encouragement, support and help aren't the same as being pushy. I am often criticised by other parents & / or coaches for not pushing her more. So far this season she has skipped School Nationals and a major age group meet as she didn't feel like going and withdrew from a rep team next week as there is a show jumping meet, athletics is a distant 3rd behind horses and school.

    NAH JOHN, SORRY ABOUT THAT. IT DOES LOOK BAD THE WAY I PUT IT.

    I was just sort of responding to a wider audience, not so much to you because you know what you're doing and would only do the best by youngsters, especially your own kin.

    By your reply, it's sure your daughter has things in good balance.

    I suppose I was thinking about the loonies I see at the track, dragging their kids out there and you see them trudging around in 40C heat rep after rep in a way that is numbing to me, not to mention the poor little kid. And you can put your house on it that those kids will leave the sport as soon as they're independent enough to do so.

  3. #1533
    Quote Originally Posted by kitkat1

    The next day (Day 3) would be training which more specifically addresses the needs of finishing a hot 200m. That is really speed-maintenance, targeted muscular endurance.

    Charlie and others who have met greater success with 200m may differ. But I still think you can develop tolerance to enduring high-speed by putting in a maximum effort as distinct from necessarily recording your maximum speed on the clock.

    In other words you're still stressing the neuro-muscular system in a positive way by training tough when fatigued, even though the time you clock for that run may seem crappy.

    With that in mind, a Day 3 session could have the heat taken out of it but could still make a big contribution to conditioning the athlete for say the last 50m of a good 200m race.
    This could be a potentially interesting point of debate. If this is true, it certainly expands the avenues which could be taken to improve performance, especially for those who do not tolerate high intensity particularly well.

    So, how far from the "time on the clock" can you stray and still get the benefits, as long as the effort is there?

  4. #1534
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    http://www.elitefts.com/documents/running_workouts.htm

    KK, what do you think of this guy's article?

    When I competed in track in 1988Ė1992, we did what we were told. I donít know anything about ďblock trainingĒ or ďCNS.Ē So I canít give any educated advice on where these workouts fit into a training cycle. All I know is that they killed me, and I canít imagine one or more of these workouts not being beneficial to a large number of athletes. I have read numerous posts on the web from people who make their living training athletes, and I wanted to share my experiences so that you young guys might pick up a trick or two from the elite coaches Iíve had the pleasure of training under.

    These are conditioning workouts. Iíve performed them on the track, street, in a park, and on a golf course. They are pretty short so intensity of the work internal is the key.

    Iím going to list the work interval followed by the recovery interval in parentheses. Here is a list in ascending order of the worst, most annoying track workouts I was stupid enough ever to complete:

    Two minutes (1 minute rest), 4 minutes (1 minute rest), 6 minutes (1 minute rest), 4 minutes (1 minute rest), 2 minutes: The intervals are run at a medium hard pace. This workout was designed by Rolf Krumann and Paul Schmidt of western Germany. It is basically a rest/pause time trial. They devised it as a workout to help 400-meter runners wishing to move up to 800 meters get in some quality distance work, which they arenít accustomed. I suck at distance work, and this workout helped me to gain some much needed overall conditioning. It could benefit most athletes. You can manipulate the intervals anyway you want. For example, I preferred to do 2 minutes (1 minute rest), 3 minutes (1 minute rest), 4 minutes (1 minute rest), 3 minutes (1 minute rest), 2 minutes.

    One minute hard (1 minute easy): Essentially you warm up (for me usually a mile run) and then nail 1 minute hard followed by an easy 1 minute jog. In my younger days, I tried to maintain a 60Ė70 second, 400-meter pace for the 1 minute hard interval. Now, my goal is not to hurl in front of my neighbors. I absolutely suck at this. It is one of the most basic running workouts, but it kills me. I think the most I ever did of this crap was six sets. Pencil neck distance runners can do it all day. Most athletes or powerlifters hoping to increase some GPP could benefit from as little as 2Ė3 sets.

    Three minutes medium: 1 minute hard: 10 seconds all out: This creator of this workout, Loren Seagrave, claims it hits all three energy systems. I think he means the lactic acid, glycogen system, and oxygen system, but donít quote me. An example would be:

    3 minute jog at 8 minute mile pace

    1 minute run at 4Ė4:30 mile pace

    10 seconds all out

    The 10 second burst after 1 minute hard is a real gut check, and it sets you up for a challenging 3 minute recovery into the next set. I think the most Iíve ever done of this is about six sets, and I covered about three miles. Any athlete could get a good workout from as little as 2Ė3 sets.

    Two hundred meter (1.5 minutes rest), 400 meters (3 minutes rest), 200 meters (1.5 minutes rest), 200 meters: All intervals are to be done faster than the athletes current 800-meter pace. This is actually a scientific way to predict an athleteís 800-meter time. It is probably only a workout for track athletes, but I included it anyway because I donít know who you guys coach. I dreaded this on the way to the track, and I actually couldnít believe I finished it.

    Three hundred meter (brisk 100-meter jog), 300 meters: This workout was a staple of the training programs of Brooks Johnson, the former Stanford and US Olympic track team coach. It is the hardest, most lactic acid inducing workout Iíve ever done. The 300-meter sprints induce lactic acid on their own. The 300-meters almost back to back with a quick 100-meter jog recovery are horrible. Remember, these 300 meters are run hard even though they are back to back. Johnson advocates doing three sets of this nightmare. The first time I tried it, I did one set and it took me half an hour to recover enough to walk to the car. I donít think I ever did more than two sets. If there is one speed endurance workout you should have your athletes do, this is it. It tests speed, speed endurance, sprinting form, and guts all at once. I was surprisingly able to match the time of my first 300, but the second 300 was an exercise in concentration, sprinting form, and the will to improve.

  5. #1535
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    "Here is a list in ascending order of the worst, most annoying track workouts I was stupid enough ever to complete:"

    Having read the workouts, you won't get any argument from me that one would be stupid to attempt them. They are illogical as a session for a sprinter.

    Eg: The 300m/1min/300m x 3 are basically 600m (x 3) split runs for distance runners. It's something a group of AFL boundary umpires might undertake (Aust Rules). I would never recommend it for an athlete wanting to run fast 100's, 200's or 400's.

    Hard to imagine Loren Seagrave would recommend a 3min run at 8min mile pace, then a 1min run at 4-30 pace then an all out 10s run. That would be tempting fate.

    I'm not a big one for mixing extreme ends of the spectrum - middle distance and an all out sprint within the one training session. Particularly if the middle distance run precedes the sprint.

  6. #1536
    Administrator Charlie Francis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ESTI
    http://www.elitefts.com/documents/running_workouts.htm

    KK, what do you think of this guy's article?

    When I competed in track in 1988Ė1992, we did what we were told. I donít know anything about ďblock trainingĒ or ďCNS.Ē So I canít give any educated advice on where these workouts fit into a training cycle. All I know is that they killed me, and I canít imagine one or more of these workouts not being beneficial to a large number of athletes. I have read numerous posts on the web from people who make their living training athletes, and I wanted to share my experiences so that you young guys might pick up a trick or two from the elite coaches Iíve had the pleasure of training under.

    These are conditioning workouts. Iíve performed them on the track, street, in a park, and on a golf course. They are pretty short so intensity of the work internal is the key.

    Iím going to list the work interval followed by the recovery interval in parentheses. Here is a list in ascending order of the worst, most annoying track workouts I was stupid enough ever to complete:

    Two minutes (1 minute rest), 4 minutes (1 minute rest), 6 minutes (1 minute rest), 4 minutes (1 minute rest), 2 minutes: The intervals are run at a medium hard pace. This workout was designed by Rolf Krumann and Paul Schmidt of western Germany. It is basically a rest/pause time trial. They devised it as a workout to help 400-meter runners wishing to move up to 800 meters get in some quality distance work, which they arenít accustomed. I suck at distance work, and this workout helped me to gain some much needed overall conditioning. It could benefit most athletes. You can manipulate the intervals anyway you want. For example, I preferred to do 2 minutes (1 minute rest), 3 minutes (1 minute rest), 4 minutes (1 minute rest), 3 minutes (1 minute rest), 2 minutes.

    One minute hard (1 minute easy): Essentially you warm up (for me usually a mile run) and then nail 1 minute hard followed by an easy 1 minute jog. In my younger days, I tried to maintain a 60Ė70 second, 400-meter pace for the 1 minute hard interval. Now, my goal is not to hurl in front of my neighbors. I absolutely suck at this. It is one of the most basic running workouts, but it kills me. I think the most I ever did of this crap was six sets. Pencil neck distance runners can do it all day. Most athletes or powerlifters hoping to increase some GPP could benefit from as little as 2Ė3 sets.

    Three minutes medium: 1 minute hard: 10 seconds all out: This creator of this workout, Loren Seagrave, claims it hits all three energy systems. I think he means the lactic acid, glycogen system, and oxygen system, but donít quote me. An example would be:

    3 minute jog at 8 minute mile pace

    1 minute run at 4Ė4:30 mile pace

    10 seconds all out

    The 10 second burst after 1 minute hard is a real gut check, and it sets you up for a challenging 3 minute recovery into the next set. I think the most Iíve ever done of this is about six sets, and I covered about three miles. Any athlete could get a good workout from as little as 2Ė3 sets.

    Two hundred meter (1.5 minutes rest), 400 meters (3 minutes rest), 200 meters (1.5 minutes rest), 200 meters: All intervals are to be done faster than the athletes current 800-meter pace. This is actually a scientific way to predict an athleteís 800-meter time. It is probably only a workout for track athletes, but I included it anyway because I donít know who you guys coach. I dreaded this on the way to the track, and I actually couldnít believe I finished it.

    Three hundred meter (brisk 100-meter jog), 300 meters: This workout was a staple of the training programs of Brooks Johnson, the former Stanford and US Olympic track team coach. It is the hardest, most lactic acid inducing workout Iíve ever done. The 300-meter sprints induce lactic acid on their own. The 300-meters almost back to back with a quick 100-meter jog recovery are horrible. Remember, these 300 meters are run hard even though they are back to back. Johnson advocates doing three sets of this nightmare. The first time I tried it, I did one set and it took me half an hour to recover enough to walk to the car. I donít think I ever did more than two sets. If there is one speed endurance workout you should have your athletes do, this is it. It tests speed, speed endurance, sprinting form, and guts all at once. I was surprisingly able to match the time of my first 300, but the second 300 was an exercise in concentration, sprinting form, and the will to improve.
    Be careful to judge what is a gut check and what is a brain check. Everything here is counterproductive to sprint results.
    Remember, Brooks once reportedly told Steve Williams to warm-up from dead cold with a 47 sec 400 before his sprint sessions. I didn't believe it till I heard it from one of our club athletes who was at Florida State when this went on. he was told to do the same warmup and he immediately went from 49 point to 54 point in the 400 hurdles. As he was a senior, he told brooks to FO and went back to normal training and ran 49 point again. I also saw Evelyn Ashford go to the track, tie up her spikes and run a 54 sec 400m as her warm-up session the day before the 83 World Championships. Needless to say, she pulled up the next day and I told Brooks what I'd seen and he got angry and extremely defensive. At that point I remembered the previous story and realized that it must have been his idea!
    When he was at Stanford, he got Canada's best 3000m/x/c girl at the school. Within a couple of weeks of arriving, she won the x/c title based on the training she'd done in Toronto. Brook's workouts were soon absolutely killing her and her Toronto coach phoned him to discuss workouts. He was rudely dismissed with Brooks saying; "Are you forgetting that I made her win X/C??"
    By the time of our national champs, she was so gaunt we had to take her to the hospital!
    Thanks but I'll get my training ideas somewhere else.

  7. #1537
    The first workout we did at VCU was 6x300m under 40 seconds with 30 seconds rest. I was running with 147-149 800 runners. I lead the first two but by the last one the girls on my team were beating me. From what I hear the coach was cursing my name.

    Quote Originally Posted by Youngy
    "Here is a list in ascending order of the worst, most annoying track workouts I was stupid enough ever to complete:"

    Having read the workouts, you won't get any argument from me that one would be stupid to attempt them. They are illogical as a session for a sprinter.

    Eg: The 300m/1min/300m x 3 are basically 600m (x 3) split runs for distance runners. It's something a group of AFL boundary umpires might undertake (Aust Rules). I would never recommend it for an athlete wanting to run fast 100's, 200's or 400's.

    Hard to imagine Loren Seagrave would recommend a 3min run at 8min mile pace, then a 1min run at 4-30 pace then an all out 10s run. That would be tempting fate.

    I'm not a big one for mixing extreme ends of the spectrum - middle distance and an all out sprint within the one training session. Particularly if the middle distance run precedes the sprint.

  8. #1538
    Quote Originally Posted by Youngy
    "Here is a list in ascending order of the worst, most annoying track workouts I was stupid enough ever to complete:"

    Having read the workouts, you won't get any argument from me that one would be stupid to attempt them. They are illogical as a session for a sprinter.

    Eg: The 300m/1min/300m x 3 are basically 600m (x 3) split runs for distance runners. It's something a group of AFL boundary umpires might undertake (Aust Rules). I would never recommend it for an athlete wanting to run fast 100's, 200's or 400's.

    Hard to imagine Loren Seagrave would recommend a 3min run at 8min mile pace, then a 1min run at 4-30 pace then an all out 10s run. That would be tempting fate.

    I'm not a big one for mixing extreme ends of the spectrum - middle distance and an all out sprint within the one training session. Particularly if the middle distance run precedes the sprint.
    What Seagrave is prescribing is called a "dynamic run." The one that's outlined is for a 400m hurdler or 800m runner. As I remember it there are 4-5 permutations of this workout designed for different athletes/events. The ones for the 100-200m runners are much milder. Yes, Loren does have his athletes do them, as does Dennis Shaver the current coach at LSU, but it is only done in GPP.

    As for Brooks Johnson, he is a madman as far as I am concerned, but to say that CF would never ask an athlete to do a 600m is not correct. Have you seen his L-to-S program? There are in fact 600's in there and he would advise to split these (300+300) for many (most?) athletes.

  9. #1539
    My 400m athlete performs better in rounds than in once-off races. We prepare for a once-off race in 4 weeks time - will there be any advantage in running a 200m the day before or the morning before the race (in the evening)?

  10. #1540
    Member John's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprint_coach
    My 400m athlete performs better in rounds than in once-off races. We prepare for a once-off race in 4 weeks time - will there be any advantage in running a 200m the day before or the morning before the race (in the evening)?
    you probably saw there was quite a bit of discussion about this a few pages back which was influenced by a few factors (Koch's 300m pre 400m WR, athletes running 2nd SE reps better than 1st etc) however if you have nothing to compare it with in training and given him being a good rounds runner I would (and realise this is only my view) go for a 200m the day before say early - mid afternoon.

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