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Thread: Lactate Threshold Training

  1. #1031
    Senior Member kitkat1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John
    What rest periods did you use?

    Where are you in relation to your season?
    Looking at the nature of the session, I'm guessing recovery between reps would have been walk the remainder of the lap and go from a walkup start. Maybe 10mins-20mins between sets

  2. #1032
    Quote Originally Posted by kitkat1
    Looking at the nature of the session, I'm guessing recovery between reps would have been walk the remainder of the lap and go from a walkup start. Maybe 10mins-20mins between sets
    You're BRILLIANT!! Maybe you are a 400m coach???!!!!

    I've used a walk-back (slowly - about 3') between reps and 10' between sets.

    My one athlete is in his 4th week of the first GPP - the other one (still a junior), in the 2nd 6 week-cycle (GPP).

  3. #1033
    Quote Originally Posted by sprint_coach
    ...My one athlete is in his 4th week of the first GPP - the other one (still a junior), in the 2nd 6 week-cycle (GPP).
    sprint_coach, how much has KK's plan been adjusted according to the level of the above mentioned athletes of yours? Thanks!
    "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence then, is not an act, but a habit" Aristotle

  4. #1034
    We have used kk's hill w/o's for years. This year I changed a bit. We do the same hills only slightly slower. But we have decreased our rest period. Both men and women seem to think this is working. For pure power and speed we have adopted 10 by 100meter hill sprints with more recovery. As our gpp turns to spp we will go back to 300 hill runs with max effort and more recovery. I still want to hit all systems.

  5. #1035
    Senior Member kitkat1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trk400
    We have used kk's hill w/o's for years. This year I changed a bit. We do the same hills only slightly slower. But we have decreased our rest period. Both men and women seem to think this is working. For pure power and speed we have adopted 10 by 100meter hill sprints with more recovery. As our gpp turns to spp we will go back to 300 hill runs with max effort and more recovery. I still want to hit all systems.
    So you take a short-to-long approach to the hill thread? Develop power and (by volume) power-endurance at shorter distance and then extend the range over which you can sustain that. I like the concept and it should work.

    For how many weeks do you go short, before moving on to the longer hill?

    What angle is the 100 hill, what angle the 300 hill? Same or does the angle flatten for the longer work?


    Do you go short-to-long in all other threads of your program, or mix it up?

  6. #1036
    We use many forms of hills. Yes we usually start short to long maybe 150 to 200. 4 reps with full recovery. Then move to 6x 220. (that is the length of the hill ) full recovery. This is a paved hill right near campus. It is not real steep our male 47sec 400 runners can hit 30-31 when in good shape women 55-56 runners about 36-37. We then move to a grass 300 hill off campus that has a few flatter areas but it is still a good hill. We do 6x 300. We used to use full recovery, even doing some 300 walk back 50m sprint 50 m per your training. This hill would take our men 47-50 sec. This seaon we have started jogging back down and this has cut our recovery from about 5-7min to 2.30. so the reps are slower about 53 sec. We do this until daylight savings time ends (about halloween) We then move to a paved hill that we can do reps up to 500m. This is a hard hill with some very steep parts. It takes our guys about 73-75 sec to reach the top. We have gone out to 500m but only on rare occaisions. We wont go past 4-5 reps of 400m on this hill sometimes we will add some 100m sprints or other things. You can be creative, It depends on the time of year. But I wont go beyond 2000m total volume with the 400 guys. The same thing has happened with this hill, we used to take full recovery about 15 -20 min depending on how tired the athlete was. This year we are jogging back down taking about 3min and running a bit slower 83-88 sec.

    We may go back to some max effort full recovery hill runs as our season progresses.

    We use hills all year from sept (start of school ) to feb (1 month from ncaa indoor championships) at least once a week sometimes twice. We are in the north east and have plenty of snow and cold, but we do not have an indoor facility. So we have had to place a greater emphassis on hill work.

    We go back to hills after Indoor ncaa's until the weather gets better (april) .

    So far the guys like this work. The other hills especially our last hill the one that goes 500m) really taxed our guys,when they ran all out. They seem to feel a bit better the next day. I will go back to the max efforts later in the season , They are extremly valuable to our program. But this seems to be an easier way to work ourselves into the tough max efforts. I hope this answers some of your questions.

    On another note I would like to give you some of my experiences with training I have always used a combo of K.K.s and Uof Minn for our 400 guys with very good success, but with not having an indoor facility it became very difficult to do the fast speed work that is required. So last year we switched to a Hart /Guthrie approach. (Although I kept the hills and we did do more speed in Sept early Oct when we had warm days) We basically had the same generaly positive results.The guys at first thought they were not getting enough speed. I also worried.(None of our guys can break 11 for the hundred even with alot of speed work) But by Jan we had some major breakouts A 49.5 incoming frosh ran 47.76 and another 49.5 guy ran 48.02 so we stayed with it. One thing I really noticed is this. Even though our guys ran every day they never or very rarely had that real tired sore feeling the next day. With the speed oriented program we would sometimes have days where the guys would be real sore and tired after a hard speed endurance or lactic session. Anyways nothing scientific just things I noticed. I think most programs work fine. We probably now use stuff we stole from 3or 4 programs. One thing I always liked about K.K.'s training is that it was well presented and you could really follow and understand exactly what he was doing . I read and reread his stuff quite often. Sorry for the spelling errors I am late to practice, must go.

  7. #1037
    Senior Member kitkat1's Avatar
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    Hi trk400,

    Would you be kind enough to present some of the Hart/Guthrie ideas with some program structure info and some relevant session examples please?

    It's interesting that your guys, who may not have such great 100/(200?) speed, have made breakthroughs on the Hart-style work. I was under the impression that Hart's biggest successes have come through guys who came to him with excellent 200 if not also 100 speed.

    If so, perhaps you contribution of the powerwork on the hills has made a positive difference to the Hart-style sessions as regards outcomes for 400m runners lacking in raw 100 speed.
    kk

  8. #1038
    Quote Originally Posted by Nikoluski
    sprint_coach, how much has KK's plan been adjusted according to the level of the above mentioned athletes of yours? Thanks!
    My group consists of senior and junior athletes -the youngest 19 years of age. Luckily no youth and/or sub junior athletes. It was not necessary for me to make BIG adjustments on KK's programme ... the 19 year old athletes cope! (I think that is why KK does not indicate times/intensity ... as a coach, this is MY duty!)

    Although I decide a WEEK before the time which sessions must be changed, I sometimes act on the spur of the moment ... especially when I see some athletes 'down' (emotional) or not recovered after the previous session/sessions yet.

    And I am a believer of 'adaptation'. Therefore -when I reckon that the athletes get used to a certain training session and don't experience it as a challenge any more, I change.

    KK's programmes are of GREAT help. I follow the programmes ALMOST to the letter ... but sometimes my creativity as coach takes over! Especially when I find that there is stagnation in the group. It MUST BE a challenge!

    The session on Tuesday was changed due to AWESOME weather here .... after MONTHS and MONTHS of training in strong wind conditions. It is a hard session, but I'm pleased that we did that - with the WHOLE group, even those who are busy with the transition programme.

    Next week is a light/test week for the majority of my group. The week after that .... KK's 350, 300, 250 ... etc!! I am looking forward to this session!!! The BEST, when you think they become too arrogant. After this session, all of them are HUMBLE!!

    Where are you in your training programme? Already busy with GPP? Which week?

  9. #1039
    Hi KK I will try and answer as best I can. Guthries old program is on the net somewhere. But I talked to him last year and he sent me his plan for 05-06. He was real good about talking and explaining. A real nice guy.
    They start in early oct with 200's slow at 36 sec doing as many as 17 reps he has a beeper for rest times so i'm not sure on his rest during early prep. We use 2 min his other days can be many different things. Sometimes slow 600's or even as high as 1200's at +21 400 pace.

    The 200's on Monday seem to be the one constant of the program. For ex on Mon Dec 5 they run 14x 200@ 34 sec. On jan 2 mon they run 12x200@ 32 Jan 30 mon they run 9x200@ 29 2-6 Mon they run 8x200 @28. You can see the progression. The week of ncaa's they do 3x200@ 24sec. They use 150 accels for the main part of their speed work. Using 3x150 accels a few times a week before the WO sometimes all 5 days. Here is a full week of their program from midyear
    Mon 2-20: 7x200@ 27sec rest =200walk
    tue 2-21: 3x150accels-150 walk-3x350@+08-5min walk rest-1x200@30
    Wed 2-22: 1x200 @30-200 walk-3x200@+02-walk 200 -1x200@30
    Thur-2-23:1x200@29-3min walk-4x150@20-200 walk-1x200@30
    Fri 2-24: 3x200@ 30-29-28- 3min walk btwn runs.
    Sat 2-25: meet. Sun off
    This training is geared for a 47sec 400 runner.
    We followed this type of stuff most of the season. with some changes. Mainly the hills. Also because most of our work was outside in a parking lot the times were somewhat inprecise. We also probably did even less speed work (not by choice) We ended up with 2men at 47.76 and 47.64. One at 48.02. One at 48.23 one at 48.50. Also a guy I thought would run the fastestof all hurt his hammi but he opened the season at 1;04 for 500 in Dec I think he easily would have run 47 he was way ahead of the rest of our guys until he pulled in jan. We went 3;10 on the relay The fastest any of them were in highschool was 49.5 or thereabouts. So our progress was acceptable.

    Every once in awhile we would get on an indoor track thanks to the generosity of other local track coaches that had an indoor facility. When this opputunity arose we would try and sneak in some speed or some of yours or UMinn speed or lactic sessions.

    Another big WO we use regardless of wheather is broken 600's taken from UMinn this is a lactic power session Do a 600 broken up into 3 segments of nonstop running 30-45-30 R=6-7min try and work up to 5-6 sets, then later decrease time EX 28-45-28 . Near the end maybe 2-3 sets of 26-45-26. So as you can see we are always changing and putting things in based on weather and availability of facilities. It usually seems to go on a day to day basis especially in the winter. It is more a general concept than a precise program.If we are lucky and have 2 warm days we may try and sneak in 2 speed sessions, but I have to cut the volume down,so as to avoid injury. Even though this goes against my better judgement. Alot of our stuff goes by feel and communication. I have to talk to the guys on a daily basis to make sure they are feeling ok.

    Almost every coach I know has excellent programs that work. But with our weather and lack of facilities we have had to try and do things different. I probably would not recommend our stuff to most people. but it seems to be the best we can do.

    Our typical GPP week when weather is still good might go like this Mon speed day plyos accel or fly runs. lift. Tues Hills wed Temo on grass or pool or slow 300's up to 600's maybe at 2min early working down to 1;35 by Nov -lift. Thur broken 600's fri easy relaxed speed maybe 80m or 150's at 18.5 speed Something like 3x2x150 @ 17-18 r=2/7 min-lift Sat off or Hills 2 sets of 6x150 all done in under 6 min rest 5min btwn the set. This I stole from UMinn.. Hope this answers some of your questions.

  10. #1040
    Senior Member kitkat1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trk400
    Hi KK I will try and answer as best I can. Guthries old program is on the net somewhere. But I talked to him last year and he sent me his plan for 05-06. He was real good about talking and explaining. A real nice guy.
    They start in early oct with 200's slow at 36 sec doing as many as 17 reps he has a beeper for rest times so i'm not sure on his rest during early prep. We use 2 min his other days can be many different things. Sometimes slow 600's or even as high as 1200's at +21 400 pace.

    The 200's on Monday seem to be the one constant of the program. For ex on Mon Dec 5 they run 14x 200@ 34 sec. On jan 2 mon they run 12x200@ 32 Jan 30 mon they run 9x200@ 29 2-6 Mon they run 8x200 @28. You can see the progression. The week of ncaa's they do 3x200@ 24sec. They use 150 accels for the main part of their speed work. Using 3x150 accels a few times a week before the WO sometimes all 5 days. Here is a full week of their program from midyear
    Mon 2-20: 7x200@ 27sec rest =200walk
    tue 2-21: 3x150accels-150 walk-3x350@+08-5min walk rest-1x200@30
    Wed 2-22: 1x200 @30-200 walk-3x200@+02-walk 200 -1x200@30
    Thur-2-23:1x200@29-3min walk-4x150@20-200 walk-1x200@30
    Fri 2-24: 3x200@ 30-29-28- 3min walk btwn runs.
    Sat 2-25: meet. Sun off
    This training is geared for a 47sec 400 runner.
    We followed this type of stuff most of the season. with some changes. Mainly the hills. Also because most of our work was outside in a parking lot the times were somewhat inprecise. We also probably did even less speed work (not by choice) We ended up with 2men at 47.76 and 47.64. One at 48.02. One at 48.23 one at 48.50. Also a guy I thought would run the fastestof all hurt his hammi but he opened the season at 1;04 for 500 in Dec I think he easily would have run 47 he was way ahead of the rest of our guys until he pulled in jan. We went 3;10 on the relay The fastest any of them were in highschool was 49.5 or thereabouts. So our progress was acceptable.

    Every once in awhile we would get on an indoor track thanks to the generosity of other local track coaches that had an indoor facility. When this opputunity arose we would try and sneak in some speed or some of yours or UMinn speed or lactic sessions.

    Another big WO we use regardless of wheather is broken 600's taken from UMinn this is a lactic power session Do a 600 broken up into 3 segments of nonstop running 30-45-30 R=6-7min try and work up to 5-6 sets, then later decrease time EX 28-45-28 . Near the end maybe 2-3 sets of 26-45-26. So as you can see we are always changing and putting things in based on weather and availability of facilities. It usually seems to go on a day to day basis especially in the winter. It is more a general concept than a precise program.If we are lucky and have 2 warm days we may try and sneak in 2 speed sessions, but I have to cut the volume down,so as to avoid injury. Even though this goes against my better judgement. Alot of our stuff goes by feel and communication. I have to talk to the guys on a daily basis to make sure they are feeling ok.

    Almost every coach I know has excellent programs that work. But with our weather and lack of facilities we have had to try and do things different. I probably would not recommend our stuff to most people. but it seems to be the best we can do.

    Our typical GPP week when weather is still good might go like this Mon speed day plyos accel or fly runs. lift. Tues Hills wed Temo on grass or pool or slow 300's up to 600's maybe at 2min early working down to 1;35 by Nov -lift. Thur broken 600's fri easy relaxed speed maybe 80m or 150's at 18.5 speed Something like 3x2x150 @ 17-18 r=2/7 min-lift Sat off or Hills 2 sets of 6x150 all done in under 6 min rest 5min btwn the set. This I stole from UMinn.. Hope this answers some of your questions.
    Thanks trk400,

    It is very interesting to see how successful coaches work, and under the prevailing circumstances you are unquestionably successful. Thanks for taking time to post in such detail, which is the only way the rest of us can understand and learn from your experience. kk

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