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Thread: Continuation of Organism Strength thread

  1. #21
    Clemson
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    I use a cluster of doubles with two minutes rest early in the season to spark a strength phase when planting growth seeds in a program.

    Pakewi....are you getting my emails?

  2. #22
    Member pakewi's Avatar
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    I find lower rep ranges and overall moderate numbers of total lifts per session interfere less and actually help the special endurance of my swimmers, while higher ranges and numbers always seem to impair the second half of the race.

    Thoughts?
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  3. #23
    Pakewi,

    Are you referring to doing heavy singles with relatively long rest between reps such as:

    110kg power clean - 1 rep - 45 sec rest - 1 rep - 45 sec rest - 1 rep - 45 sec rest, etc. etc for 8 to 10 reps.

    I know of a strength coach who does these types of routines and swears by them.

    I would be interested to hear more about protocols and progressions for these types of workouts. I have my own ideas about what I would do.

    Thanks.



    Quote Originally Posted by pakewi
    When talking about higher rep ranges I wonder if anyone ever dared to experiment with multiple short rest singles or doubles,when constructing weights programs as means of general strength training for a sport -something like : 10x1 1 min rest or 5x2 2min rest for example?

    I have been approaching similar protocols for years now, and always got better overall results and gains (even in size when needed) with less drawbacks in the sport activity itself .

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by pakewi
    When talking about higher rep ranges I wonder if anyone ever dared to experiment with multiple short rest singles or doubles,when constructing weights programs as means of general strength training for a sport -something like : 10x1 1 min rest or 5x2 2min rest for example?

    I have been approaching similar protocols for years now, and always got better overall results and gains (even in size when needed) with less drawbacks in the sport activity itself .
    Pakewi, in my view, the approach which you describe is more well suited to a more advanced trainee who is trying to develop certain components of muscular strength (eg max strength, strength speed, relative strength, speed strength, dynamic/explosive strength endurance). As an athlete of lower classification has not yet developed the levels of muscular coordination to effectively perform low repetition work with significant load.

    Additionally, we must consider what the objective is. As much of the repetition method of training is well suited for pre/rehabilitation. Accordingly, higher repetitions with sub maximal weight may prove to be more optimal for certain rotator cuff, erector, etc, work for swimmers (as I am sure you are already aware of).

    So as you stated, 'general strength training' surely lends itself to the utilization of more sets less repetitions, however, we are better able to define the loading parameters the more specifically we can target our objective (eg which specific component of 'general strength training' are we trying to develop)

    Pakewi, will you be attending the Verkhoshansky/Yessis seminar?

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by pakewi
    When talking about higher rep ranges I wonder if anyone ever dared to experiment with multiple short rest singles or doubles,when constructing weights programs as means of general strength training for a sport -something like : 10x1 1 min rest or 5x2 2min rest for example?

    I have been approaching similar protocols for years now, and always got better overall results and gains (even in size when needed) with less drawbacks in the sport activity itself .
    What about John Davis - great weightlifter. 10 x 2. Always trained within his limits similar to Ben Johnson. Based his training on how he felt (RPE)

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by gf_200
    I'd tackle specific endurance on the track and use weights to address general strength issues.

    Bompa in "Periodisation for Sport" advocates this kind of work, implying such sessions as 48sec. sets in the gym for 400m athlete etc. I can't remember the exact name he had for this phase of the training cycle but I'm wasn't too convinced. Comments?
    i agree with your first paragraph...

    i think Bompa refers to it as "Conversion to Muscular Endurance", but i always had trouble fitting it to training and i never did; where would you put it? after a Sp End session? as a separate session in the week having an extra Sp End one (if it works that well as he claims)? what's more specific than running?

    unless as Charlie says there are injury issues... in the same way you use the drills in bad weather situations...
    "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence then, is not an act, but a habit" Aristotle

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by pakewi
    I find lower rep ranges and overall moderate numbers of total lifts per session interfere less and actually help the special endurance of my swimmers, while higher ranges and numbers always seem to impair the second half of the race.

    Thoughts?
    what you are saying sounds interesting; since there is special endurance in the event itself, training the same system in the weight room again might prove too much for Sp. End's full development; i suppose it relates to the maintenance phase -as referred in this site- although i am not sure where exactly you would fit such sessions in the season and for what purpose (if not for max str/maintenance); Clemson said it could be used as str base (?)

    could you please expand on this?
    "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence then, is not an act, but a habit" Aristotle

  8. #28
    Member pakewi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikolouski
    what you are saying sounds interesting; since there is special endurance in the event itself, training the same system in the weight room again might prove too much for Sp. End's full development; i suppose it relates to the maintenance phase -as referred in this site- although i am not sure where exactly you would fit such sessions in the season and for what purpose (if not for max str/maintenance); Clemson said it could be used as str base (?)

    could you please expand on this?
    Nikolouski,
    my reasoning is exactly on these tracks,and I was hoping someone would have driven discussion towards this.
    What I actually find is that the 2nd part of the 100m swimming races is more a matter of strength and "staying strong" more than any purely endurance related issue once swimming speed is in place. Nothing as contemporary training with higher rep ranges (I would say higher than 3 )in the gym seems to interfere as much with the performance in the second half of a 100m race in the pool in my experience, hence my first suspect of a strong conflict for the use of the same energy envelop,more than any more locally muscular related issue .
    Knowledge belongs to the world. (Synapse)

  9. #29
    Member pakewi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Smith
    Pakewi, in my view, the approach which you describe is more well suited to a more advanced trainee who is trying to develop certain components of muscular strength (eg max strength, strength speed, relative strength, speed strength, dynamic/explosive strength endurance). As an athlete of lower classification has not yet developed the levels of muscular coordination to effectively perform low repetition work with significant load.

    Additionally, we must consider what the objective is. As much of the repetition method of training is well suited for pre/rehabilitation. Accordingly, higher repetitions with sub maximal weight may prove to be more optimal for certain rotator cuff, erector, etc, work for swimmers (as I am sure you are already aware of).

    So as you stated, 'general strength training' surely lends itself to the utilization of more sets less repetitions, however, we are better able to define the loading parameters the more specifically we can target our objective (eg which specific component of 'general strength training' are we trying to develop)

    Pakewi, will you be attending the Verkhoshansky/Yessis seminar?
    When I talk about singles and doubles I refer to big compound lifts as primary work, not to auxiliary/prehab exercise as I would consider erectors and rotator cuff exercises,and which I agree would be better served by classical higher rep ranges (6 to 8 in my experience).

    As for the specific component, wouldn't you think we might successfully target any portion of the force time curve while employing mostly singles and doubles while carefully managing the volume,intensity, and density variables?

    I would love to come and join the seminars, but at the present it doesn't look like I will have the chance to do it!

    Let's keep this discussion up though!
    Knowledge belongs to the world. (Synapse)

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by pakewi

    As for the specific component, wouldn't you think we might successfully target any portion of the force time curve while employing mostly singles and doubles while carefully managing the volume,intensity, and density variables?
    In regards to the various points along the curve, not related to an endurance component, I absolutely agree with you.

    I do, however, believe that higher repetition lifts are valuable not only for pre/rehab and increased cross-section, but also for increased capillarization/mitochondrial content. Thus, for athletes who participate in events which border on different bioenergy systems (eg glycolitic/oxidative 400m, 800m runners, 200m swimmers, rowers, etc) I believe that higher repetition training is warranted, aside from the work capacity developed from the execution of sport practice itself.

    As far as the strength/power development activities are concerned; however, there is very little place for higher repetition work for the purposes of developing starting/acceleration/expolsive/speed strength/strength speed/relative/limit strength

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