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Thread: Continuation of Organism Strength thread

  1. #1

    Continuation of Organism Strength thread

    Re: Hormonal response.

    All my reading suggests GH and T response to training is greatest for higher rep, lower recovery sessions (3x10r, 1min R 'better' than 4x5r, 3min R). The suggestion that Jon Edwards goes to max for a hormonal spike is therefore questionable.

    THere are also a number of potential reasons for the acute increase in T due to weight training these include:

    1. Reduced renal blood flow causing decreased metabolic clearance
    2. Increased secretion from the Leydig cells or an alteration in testicular blood flow.
    3. A decrease in plasma volume due to movement of water out of the cardiovascular system, this would cause an increase in testosterone concentration without an increase in total testosterone.

  2. #2
    I perfer 3-5minutes rest. But it would be interesting to note that 1 minute rest might help a 200/400m with overcoming lactic acid buildup. Maybe even the 100m sprinter. Any comments?

  3. #3
    "But it would be interesting to note that 1 minute rest might help a 200/400m with overcoming lactic acid buildup. Maybe even the 100m sprinter. Any comments?"

    There is always, IMO, the danger of falling too far down into the depths of specificity in the gym. I'd tackle specific endurance on the track and use weights to address general strength issues.

    Bompa in "Periodisation for Sport" advocates this kind of work, implying such sessions as 48sec. sets in the gym for 400m athlete etc. I can't remember the exact name he had for this phase of the training cycle but I'm wasn't too convinced. Comments?

  4. #4
    Originally posted by Kyle
    a good 400 runner first needs to be a good 200 runner, who first needs to be a good 100 runner... use the weights to help you get faster...
    It could also go the other way, a good 400 leads to a good 200 and a good 200 leads to good 100. Weights play less of a role the further you move from the start(CF)

  5. #5

    Re: Hormonal response

    Originally posted by David W
    The suggestion that Jon Edwards goes to max for a hormonal spike is therefore questionable.
    The Bulgarian weightlifters use hormonal response as follows. Since there is a T spike starting after 20 minutes of training and this spike continues for 30-40 minutes, they do as much near-max and max lifting as possible for these 30-40 minutes. The first 20 minutes are spent with succesively heaver warm-up weights, which is enough to induce the spike.

    Then they quit. Total time 50-60 minutes. No point of training outside the "spiked T zone". Then they rest a few hours and repeat, often multiple times per day.

    I guess this is also the theory behind the Greek's reported use of many short sessions during the entire day.

  6. #6
    Originally posted by Kyle
    I don't see how training intensely all day works.
    Break a single 2 hour session into two 1 hour sessions, or a 2.5 hour session into three 50 minute sessions. Of course, it assumes you don't do much else (like having a job) and that you have been conditioned for this by increasing the training load over many years. Most likely it also assumes some pharmaceutical aids.

    I doubt warm-up sets would cause much of T spike in the first place anyway...
    "Warm-up" here refers to weights below 85-90%.

  7. #7
    Originally posted by Kyle
    .... I just didn't believe that your description of the endocrine response to their workouts was very accurate.
    You might be right, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of evidence supporting their scheme. Here is what I found in Arthur Drechsler's Weightlifting Encyclopedia (1998):

    "Some research in Eastern Europe has even suggested that exercise aimed at increasing muscle strength and size is better performed when certain hormones (notably testosterone) are elevated (which, they argue, begins 15 or 20 minutes into a hard workout but seldom lasts an hour). The existence of this precise pattern of hormone elevation has yet to be confirmed by experiments in the West (where equipment tends to be substantially more accurate); nor has a link between the timing of any hormone elevation and a training effect been demonstrated scientifically."

  8. #8
    Administrator Charlie Francis's Avatar
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    Jan 2003
    I think you are getting far too esoteric in your training concepts. Think in terms of the response of the whole body to training. 90 minutes is often considered an ideal length for workouts, though this seems to be a nutritional consideration. (The body will begin to catabalize muscle to supply sugar to the brain if a drop is prolonged) but speed work can seldom be finished in this time-frame, so supplementation may be required.
    As for the idea of using weights to simulate an event in duration, I think it's a bad idea unless you have an injury which prevents you from using means more specific to the event itself. Use weights to get stronger and runs to develop specific endurance.

  9. #9
    Hormonal responses from training are overrated. They are transient at best and WILL NOT have a significant impact on performance and recovery. Fastors such as post workout nutrition, restoration techniques and means of training should be emphasized.

    Here is a paragraph from the second book I'm working on, it's related to GH increases during training and fat loss but still applies for any form of hormonal increase from training.

    "Iíll say it once and for all: the purpose of strength-training while dieting is primarily to prevent muscle loss while on a caloric deficit diet. A lot of gurus now like to use strength training exercises to burn fat by using long series (15-20+ repetitions) and short rest intervals (30-60 seconds). Their logic is that this form of training increases growth hormone output. GH being a lipolytic (increase fat usage) hormone they argue that a training method leading to a great level of GH will naturally lead to an important fat utilization. It is unlikely that the slight, transient, increase in GH levels from strength training would cause any significant short term improvements in body composition."

    Also keep in mind the following:

    1. Hormonal response from training will strongly be influenced by your nutritional status. For example training after a 8-9 hours fast will lead to a greater GH output ... however it will also lead to a more catabolic state.

    2. Siping on a protein and carbs drink during training will reduce the GH response, but research shows that it actually increases the gains from training.

    3. Taking a sauna during training has been shown to increase GH output, however it greatly decreases the execution of the last bout of training.

    So as you can see, the increase in GH is a very bad way to establish the efficacy of a training program. Training parameters should be planned to work specific physical capacities, not to elicit a specific hormonal response.

  10. #10
    Now, in regard to Bulgarian training ...

    The real reasons for the split training are:

    1. To be able to sustain a higher workload without fatiguing as much (by spreading the volume throughout the day they can be fresher for those last exercises).

    2. Increased synaptic facilitation. There is evidence that motor learning is improved more by frequency of practice than by volume of practice. By training 2-3 times per day, event at equivolume, the motor learning effect is greater.

    3. Spreading the volume across the day makes it easier for the coach to control the athletes. If they trained one per day, the athletes would have a lot of free time, and some of them would not spend this time properly. By training multiple times per day, the athlete must stick to the program.

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