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Thread: Undertraining Vs Overtraining

  1. #61
    Well, I can say that i'm very interested in what you guys have to say about this one. I want to increase my speed and strength to the next season. I play soccer in Sweden and our season is over now. We were about to get a little break from practice for a while but suddenly things changed. Now we're trying to reach the hightest division of our age class (18 next year). I don't really care if my legs are in top shape during this qualification period because I'm not going to play that much with this team next year anyhow. However, the problem is that when we have played our qualifying games and our break starts the team that i'm going to play with next year starts their training again. I don't really know when and how much I should train. This is rather important to me because speed is something that i really want to improve. My legs still got the feeling that you have after a long season. They scream for some rest. But still I can't give them that rest because I have to train (not that much but anyway) and play one game a week now for three or four more weeks if we don't loose the next game (It's a elimination competition).

    So I don't really know what to do. I feel like less is more right know but that won't improve my speed the way I want to. Maybe some rest now and then a shorter period of hard speed training. Then some rest again on our christmas break before the pre-season starts.

    Well, I'll follow your discussion and see what you have to say.

    Cheers..

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Flash
    I think sprinters tend to push too hard in the weight room because they lose sight of how the weights fit into the overall picture. Sprinting is the primary high intensity stimulus in the training. The weights merely supplement that. Pushing too hard in the weight room is inevitably the result of overestimating the importance of weight training relative to sprint work. I think if athletes and coaches think of output in the weight room as more a reflection of output on the track, rather than the other way around, they're more likely to place primary emphasis where it belongs and avoid over extending in the weights.
    Flash,

    That is a brilliant post.

    It has taken me a LONG time to recognize that. I am still figuring out optimal weight training loads for my present situation but I am getting much closer.

    I can now get 2 good high intensity days of sprinting in a week with total speedwork volume in the ~1400m a week range.

    I am still lifting twice a week doing the main lifts (squat, dead, bench/pushpress, clean etc) but have tapered things down significantly from what I was doing last year.

    (I have also included a strength endurance day as well which is helping a ton)

    I am recovering much faster and am running faster now after only completing GPP vs all of last year!!

    Cheers,
    Chris

  3. #63
    Administrator Charlie Francis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quasi
    Well, I can say that i'm very interested in what you guys have to say about this one. I want to increase my speed and strength to the next season. I play soccer in Sweden and our season is over now. We were about to get a little break from practice for a while but suddenly things changed. Now we're trying to reach the hightest division of our age class (18 next year). I don't really care if my legs are in top shape during this qualification period because I'm not going to play that much with this team next year anyhow. However, the problem is that when we have played our qualifying games and our break starts the team that i'm going to play with next year starts their training again. I don't really know when and how much I should train. This is rather important to me because speed is something that i really want to improve. My legs still got the feeling that you have after a long season. They scream for some rest. But still I can't give them that rest because I have to train (not that much but anyway) and play one game a week now for three or four more weeks if we don't loose the next game (It's a elimination competition).

    So I don't really know what to do. I feel like less is more right know but that won't improve my speed the way I want to. Maybe some rest now and then a shorter period of hard speed training. Then some rest again on our christmas break before the pre-season starts.

    Well, I'll follow your discussion and see what you have to say.

    Cheers..
    When your legs are screaming for rest, more rest won't help your speed??? Why on earth not?
    When you're tired, More of anything is never the answer- unless it's more therapy!

  4. #64
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    Chris30,
    This past year I dramatically scaled back my weight training and just threw it in as an afterthought to my speed workouts, depending on how I felt. I ended up gaining more strength between last September and April (when I peaked out) than I did the previous ten years (my squat increased about 30% and my incline press went up about 20%). And I did that at the age of 31/32. It's never too late to learn. My average weight workout comprises 2-3 lifts for a total of 4-6 sets (not including warmup sets). This is very much in line with what Ian King prescribes for his athletes.

    The main thing holding me back on the track was my soft tissue problems, which Charlie's post above hits square on the head. As I posted in the Fascial Stretching thread, now that I know what the muscles and postural alignment should ideally feel like, I don't do any training unless I can get the tissue in the optimal state during the warmup. If it doesn't come, I don't train. I just move into a regeneration session. It's frustrating at times, but you have to let logic override your emotions. To paraphrase Ian King, there's a big difference between knowing what to do (or not to do) and actually doing it.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Flash
    In Asheville Charlie pointed out that Tim's 9.78 was run on a fairly "average" track. So I don't think Tim had the advantages of a non-regulation harder track like Carl and Donovan had. In fact, Charlie dismissed objections to Tim's performance on these grounds.

    As far as "advances" in sport science over the past 15 years. I really don't think there have been any. If anything, I think the state of the art in sports training has regressed considerably. Never before has serious sports training been more subject to fads. I think as fitness and exercise has increased among the general population a lot of the marketing and gimmicks directed toward the general population have spilled over into sports training. I think Charlie is right (surprise) when he says that you'll get better results using the methods Gerard Mach used 40 years ago than from following most of the recent training methods of the past 15 years. I have a copy of Gerard's little pamphlet on sprinting and hurdling, and in only 50 pages Gerard provides better training advice that any of the Guru's running around today.
    could you please let me know how i could fine this pamphlet?
    thanks!
    "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence then, is not an act, but a habit" Aristotle

  6. #66
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    Unfortunately, it's out of print. Number Two picked up a few copies of it a couple years ago and I was lucky enough to buy one from him. They're probably all gone now. I floated the idea of selling it on this site as an e-book, but I don't think Charlie has followed up with Gerard on this point.

  7. #67
    to avoid over training
    justtake some weeks off between indoor and outdoor seasons

  8. #68
    After finally getting a chance to read through this thread I feel it is important to stress the differences lightly touched on by a couple of the members between overtraining and overreaching.

    Overtraining is a complex and still relatively little understood occurence where an athletes performance deteriorates do to an inability to cope with continued mental and physical forces applied by a training regime.

    Overtraining can have many negative effects on the body such as lowering of testosterone production in males, wegiht loss, overuse injuries, hampering of the immune system causing illness or infection, high blood pressure, sleep disorder, as well as psychological disruptions such as depression, anxiety, fatigue, disinterest, etc.

    The effects of overtraining often take many weeks if not months to recover from.

    Overreaching on the otherhand, with the terms still sometimes used synonimously, tends to refer more to a short term effect of slight overload of training volume/intensity/lack of rest causing minor negative effects such as increased fatigue or need for elogated rest between training sessions (perhaps 3-4days). However as previously stated overreaching can, if used properly in a training regime, have positive effects resulting from supercompensation.

    Here is a good article describing the effects of overtraining:
    A Review of Overtraining - Recognizing the Signs and Symptoms

  9. #69
    Administrator Charlie Francis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by popequique
    After finally getting a chance to read through this thread I feel it is important to stress the differences lightly touched on by a couple of the members between overtraining and overreaching.

    Overtraining is a complex and still relatively little understood occurence where an athletes performance deteriorates do to an inability to cope with continued mental and physical forces applied by a training regime.

    Overtraining can have many negative effects on the body such as lowering of testosterone production in males, wegiht loss, overuse injuries, hampering of the immune system causing illness or infection, high blood pressure, sleep disorder, as well as psychological disruptions such as depression, anxiety, fatigue, disinterest, etc.

    The effects of overtraining often take many weeks if not months to recover from.

    Overreaching on the otherhand, with the terms still sometimes used synonimously, tends to refer more to a short term effect of slight overload of training volume/intensity/lack of rest causing minor negative effects such as increased fatigue or need for elogated rest between training sessions (perhaps 3-4days). However as previously stated overreaching can, if used properly in a training regime, have positive effects resulting from supercompensation.

    Here is a good article describing the effects of overtraining:
    A Review of Overtraining - Recognizing the Signs and Symptoms
    "Overreaching", as you define it, is actually a high stress stimulus applied at appropriate intervals in the training program, so, in fact, "overreaching" doesn't overreach!

  10. #70
    in russia linear periodization was only used as a means to produce results in athletes for a single compotetion or narrow competiton period. coaches in the former ussr were paid on a quota system, where they recieved payemnt directly proportional to the results they achieved. So many times periodization was instituted to insure payment. In reality at the highest level coaches used a deficiet system in which a deficiet was calculabe deficiet was placed on an athlete via "overtraining" it would look somewhat like a check mark in which the bottom point marked the greatest level of performance deficiet and the right most end indicatiing the eventual level of supercompensation. This allowed for multiple "peaks" throughout the year and a more variable control over the athletes development. what i have recently learned is the longer this defeciet is maintained the greater the supercompensatory response after the defeciet is "relieved" this gives a coach or athlete even more control of training stimulus since they can come out of the deficiet with the use of restortive methods either within the training or otherwise. ofcourse the defeciet must be constant and non-maladaptive.

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