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Thread: Rio men's 200m

  1. #41
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    Re: Rio men's 200m

    Quote Originally Posted by robin1 View Post
    He only did one 60m race in 2016, which was within 0.01s of his PB achieved during a full indoor season in 2015. It is difficult to determine how much time is gained through wind assistance. Wind measurements are not very precise and different people are affected differently by wind. For me, for example, a difference between +0.2 (as in Rio 2016) and +2.7 (as in Eugene 2015) would easily equate to a gain of 0.25s or more in a 100m race, while for others it doesn't make that much of a difference (I have a friend who runs the same time every race no matter what's happening with the wind.). Moreover, he didn't run through the finish line in his 19.80s semi final, which was run into a -0.3 headwind. It was also a lot cooler in Rio than it would have been in Eugene, and Eugene is known as one of if not the fastest track in the world, while most times below 400m in Rio where not very impressive. At the end of the day, you have to compare apples with apples, and De Grasse did better in Rio this year than he did in Beijing last year, while others who made it to both finals were slower in Rio. No one knows what he would have been capable of this year under the same conditions as he got in Eugene last year. De Grasse's official 100m and 200m personal bests were both set in Rio.
    I agree apples to apples, however, the elevation between Rio and Eugene is negligible (difference of about 115 meters) so I'd need to see how you are arriving at the 2.7 equating to a .25 advantage because every wind aided conversion calculator would suggest that the advantage is essentially half of what you propose (.12 to .14) over a 100m.

    True that Eugene is is one of the fastest tracks, however, neither that nor anything I've seen from DeGrasse has filled me with enough confidence to state that he's objectively faster than ever.

    The 60m times are actually the most viable to compare (given all 60m are ran indoors), thus a .01 differential in a year's time (in a race that more closely relates to max V than any other as it is void of the speed endurance requirement) is perhaps the most telling piece of evidence that supports my position.

    None of this is stated to take anything away from DeGrasse's achievements, nor to slight Altis as I'm glad to have a friendly relationship with Pfaff. Simply to point out that the differential between now and what Andre was achieving with Smith-Gilbert is slight at best so let's see what the future brings.

  2. #42

    Re: Rio men's 200m

    The 0.25s is based on my own personal experience, which differs from some online conversian tools. However, as I stated, different people are affected differently by wind.

    I agree that there hasn't been a huge improvement in De Grasse's speed compared to last year, but that's not to be expected anyway at this level. However, he did come closer to Gatlin by 0.1s in a global final and closer to Bolt by 0.03s this year compared to last year.

    I'm sure with a full indoor season he would have run closer to 6.50s this year.

    His preparation was far from ideal also, including long periods of modifield/alternative training. A few months ago people on this list were saying that his move to Altis was a major mistake because he was performing poorly in his early races. At the time I chimed in and suggested to wait until the Olympics before drawing such conclusions.

    I think what he and his team have pulled off to get him into this sort of shape under these circumstances is phenomenal.

  3. #43
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    Re: Rio men's 200m

    Quote Originally Posted by robin1 View Post
    The 0.25s is based on my own personal experience, which differs from some online conversian tools. However, as I stated, different people are affected differently by wind.

    I agree that there hasn't been a huge improvement in De Grasse's speed compared to last year, but that's not to be expected anyway at this level. However, he did come closer to Gatlin by 0.1s in a global final and closer to Bolt by 0.03s this year compared to last year.

    I'm sure with a full indoor season he would have run closer to 6.50s this year.

    His preparation was far from ideal also, including long periods of modifield/alternative training. A few months ago people on this list were saying that his move to Altis was a major mistake because he was performing poorly in his early races. At the time I chimed in and suggested to wait until the Olympics before drawing such conclusions.

    I think what he and his team have pulled off to get him into this sort of shape under these circumstances is phenomenal.
    Keep in mind the 100m conversion calculators account for wind velocity, elevation, and the sprint time. Thus, the velocity at which the sprinter averaged, based upon 100m time, is a significant factor regarding the calculation. The higher the sprint velocity the lesser the impact a tail wind has on generating an advantage. This is why you have experienced a ~.25 difference maker on 100m and why a sub 10 sprinter would experience roughly half that advantage.

    Thus, as reasonable as it is to remain optimistic about what his future holds, it is equally as reasonable to be optimistic about what his future may have held had he remained under Smith-Gilbert.

    Other than that I think our views are aligning on the topic.

  4. #44
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    Re: Rio men's 200m

    Quote Originally Posted by James Smith View Post
    The higher the sprint velocity the lesser the impact a tail wind has on generating an advantage.
    Why is this??

  5. #45

    Re: Rio men's 200m

    The conversion tool you used gives a 0.12s advantage caused by a +2.7 wind for someone running 9.75s and a 0.15s advantage for someone at my level. My experience has been that it's more like 0.25s for me, however. Others are not affected as much by wind, and I even know some people who's PB was run into a headwind. My point is thus that conversion tools are very unreliable. They may be fairly accurate for some people but not for others.

  6. #46

    Re: Rio men's 200m

    Quote Originally Posted by jccc110m View Post
    How do people interpret this line from de Grasse's coach?

    https://twitter.com/StuartMcMillan1/...97966712221696

    "For those who think you have to sprint maximally to get faster - not once all year did De Grasse sprint at maximal speed ..."
    Sportsnet.ca did a decent article that expanded on this a little bit I think.

    http://www.sportsnet.ca/olympics/and...-metre-sprint/

    "Its this ability to compartmentalize and conserve mental and emotional energy that may prove most useful in Rio. Im still waiting for him to run all out, either in training or in a race, McMillan says. He understands when to really let go and give 100 percent. And he has a really natural understanding of how to layer that over time so hes not fatiguing himself too early. I make fun of him every day: When are you going to actually start running? Because he gets beat every day by every single guy Ive got. Hes my worst guy. But then he goes out and beats all of them in a race.

  7. #47
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    Re: Rio men's 200m

    Regarding the physics of the matter, (this will be brief) the aerodynamics force depends upon the square of velocity. As an example doubling the velocity quadruples the drag. This is why the fastest projectiles (supersonic jets and rockets) deal with fantastic friction force/drag and associated heat.

    That's why you see wind aided tables and calculators showing a lower relationship between advantage of wind aid and sprint time the faster the sprinter.

    Outside of the air density relative to elevation and humidity and track surface, The variability as we know lies in the direction of wind on the track relative to the direction of the sprinter. PJ Vazel has written some excellent content on this matter.

  8. #48

    Re: Rio men's 200m

    Quote Originally Posted by robin1 View Post
    The 0.25s is based on my own personal experience, which differs from some online conversian tools. However, as I stated, different people are affected differently by wind.

    I agree that there hasn't been a huge improvement in De Grasse's speed compared to last year, but that's not to be expected anyway at this level. However, he did come closer to Gatlin by 0.1s in a global final and closer to Bolt by 0.03s this year compared to last year.

    I'm sure with a full indoor season he would have run closer to 6.50s this year.

    His preparation was far from ideal also, including long periods of modifield/alternative training. A few months ago people on this list were saying that his move to Altis was a major mistake because he was performing poorly in his early races. At the time I chimed in and suggested to wait until the Olympics before drawing such conclusions.

    I think what he and his team have pulled off to get him into this sort of shape under these circumstances is phenomenal.
    I agree, He most certainly did not go backwards in progression.

  9. #49

    Re: Rio men's 200m

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=6shxH_JSU-M

    -its a swedish documentary on elite athletes and equipment. Degrassr is getting coverage for the first 14:00minutes.

    -if you listen closely you could still hear him or his coach at the time(smith- gilbert) talking.

    -at one point you could even hear her telling some training advice that sounded pretty damn good coming from her. At 9:04, she advises, "we're going to have to get you on alot of one leg drills. You get 4 weeks off, when you come back, start on that. The 2nd year is going to be phenomenal!"

    -the commentary sounds like the same voice who did the short documentary on asafa powell and his mvp camp, years back around 2007 or thereabouts.

  10. #50

    Re: Rio men's 200m

    Quote Originally Posted by flettotenko View Post
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=6shxH_JSU-M

    -its a swedish documentary on elite athletes and equipment. Degrassr is getting coverage for the first 14:00minutes.

    -if you listen closely you could still hear him or his coach at the time(smith- gilbert) talking.

    -at one point you could even hear her telling some training advice that sounded pretty damn good coming from her. At 9:04, she advises, "we're going to have to get you on alot of one leg drills. You get 4 weeks off, when you come back, start on that. The 2nd year is going to be phenomenal!"

    -the commentary sounds like the same voice who did the short documentary on asafa powell and his mvp camp, years back around 2007 or thereabouts.
    Documentary is actually in german. What kind of BS track is De Grasse sprinting on. Not even close to what Owens was sprinting on LOL.

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