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Thread: Overspeed treadmill training by Yuri Grebenyuk?

  1. #11

    Re: Overspeed treadmill training by Yuri Grebenyuk?

    Oh, and the training was 6x80m three times a week.
    Super duper basic training program that was shared by the horizontal only sprinters (who trained on a flat surface and whose max speed went from 8.12 to 8.26). Obviously the load of 8x60 will be much different on an uphill/downhill course than a flat course. But I'm not sure how the researchers could control it with any exactitude

  2. #12
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    Re: Overspeed treadmill training by Yuri Grebenyuk?

    I've always questioned the overspeed running thing, particularly in case of treadmills or towing devices. I still like to utilize tailwinds sometimes in training, but when you think critically about what is happening, it makes you wonder. It seems to me that its more of a training tool to give context to an athlete who, for example, may be an over-pusher & stays on the ground too long. Running with the wind can help them learn to get the foot down and then back off of the ground without staying on the ground too long and skewing the leg cycle to the backside, since the wind is helping them propel the body down the track. On the flip side, someone who tap-dances their way down the track may be better served running into a head-wind, as this will give them the emphasis to push their mass more horizontally down the track.

    In general, though, I don't see much benefit from overspeed in and of itself. Research shows that elite sprinters do not move their limbs much faster than sub-elites, so the idea of speeding up the movements doesn't hold much ground. Additionally, too much over-speed work could lead to someone biasing towards less of a horizontal pull->push and end up with more of a vertically applied strike (since the wind or towing is replacing the need for horizontal force). The end result would be that, without assistance, the athlete then just bounces their way down the track with longer flight times, greater amplitudes of flight, but less ground covered horizontally each stride.

    In physics, impulse is force x time, and an excessive amount of overspeed volume could cause a shift towards less time on the ground with less force production. There is no stimuli in overspeed training to produce more force in less time. Is it possible that training with shorter ground contact times could cause the body to adapt with greater RFD? Maybe. But considering there isn't a need for the body to do this I don't think it would really happen.

    How could we aim for greater RFD? Heavy isometrics provide the body with the need for greater RFD, as the body senses it needs to overcome a load that it seemly cannot overcome. Therefore it skews towards to producing more force in a shorter amount of time and activating higher threshold motor units. Also, slightly heavier sled pulls are shown to help with RFD, but if you go too heavy then you start changing the demands of the sprint too much, mechanics fall apart, GCT's lengthen excessively, etc.

    As with any training means...moderation and critical thinking are key

  3. #13

    Re: Overspeed treadmill training by Yuri Grebenyuk?

    Athletix; this is what I was going to get into.

    With treadmill and towed overspeed, I think you get the wind-assisted type effect: you are traveling faster in the air because of the greater-than-normal speed at which you are being pulled through the air, and then you do not have to apply as much force to travel this greater-than-normal distance, so your GCT can decrease. This would explain why robin1 notices an equally proportionate improvement in stride frequency and stride length.

    However, the reason you're running faster in downhill running is slightly different, I believe. You're traveling faster through the air, yes, because you're gravity-assisted, but I don't think that's the most significant thing happening. Instead, your stride length is improving because you are getting a marginally-greater flight time and therfore the chance to extend the leg downward farther and consequently faster. That equals a harder "punch" into the ground, to borrow Weyand's description.

    What that means is that it's quite different from towed/assisted flat ground running, because the practical effect is greater vertical displacement of the COM! You get to, in effect, experience the effect of running like someone much faster than yourself - and apply more force into the ground as a result. You get greater hip height than you normally do, unlike in towed running, where your vertical displacement is the same

    In that sense, I think it may be better compared with plyometric training than other forms of overspeed.

    Anyone disagree with my armchair theorizing?
    If I'm right, it might explain the positive research on downhill v the less clear research on towed

  4. #14

    Re: Overspeed treadmill training by Yuri Grebenyuk?

    So I would disagree with your assertion, athletex, that there is no mechanism in any overspeed training to apply more force in less time. With downhill running, you get an exaggerated period of time to accelerate the leg downward, therefore resulting in greater force applied at impact.

    It's punching someone with 1 inch of buildup v a full swing. Even Bruce Lee was better when he could accelerate his fist that extra distance

    Edit: the roughly-equal swing times for both faster and slower guys doesn't mean that their limbs are moving at roughly-equal rates in each phase of the swing. Faster guys spend more time in the front half of the swing, because they swing forward faster and higher and experience greater vertical displacement, giving the leg more room to accelerate.

    You probably know that already, I'm more saying it to myself, to remember the biomechanics of all this

  5. #15
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    Re: Overspeed treadmill training by Yuri Grebenyuk?

    As stylee is saying, downhill increases the vertical displacement, so you will alter the mechanics by having a GCT point landing closer to being bottom-dead-center relative to the COM, increasing hip height. But, would this particular alteration in mechanics have any implications? Because when you get back on the flat, you won't have the same distance from point of GCT to COM. It will be a further distance on the flat, and so I'm wondering if downhill running is too different for the body to apply the adaptations onto race-specific running on the flat?

  6. #16

    Re: Overspeed treadmill training by Yuri Grebenyuk?

    The paper noted slight shifts in running mechanics for the downhill group when brought back to flat running for the time trial after the training: the shank angle at toe-off increased, and the hip angle was similarly increased at the same moment - that's because the toe-off was occurring sooner and so the leg wasn't "tilted" quite as far forward when the runners finally left the ground. That equals shorter GCT and reduced backside mechanics.

    For an illustration, I refer back to James Smith's (I believe) posts with screenshots of Walter Dix's recent form, as compared to a much slower runner in the same race. The forward lean at toe-off (the acuteness of the shank angle?) was much greater for the slower guy, while Dix's shin was much more vertical.

    Let me know if I'm misstating any of this, James

  7. #17

    Re: Overspeed treadmill training by Yuri Grebenyuk?

    Quote Originally Posted by stylee View Post
    I will post the link when I get to my computer, but the paper I'm thinking of on downhill overspeed is a 2009 one by Paradisis et al.

    The researchers created a platform that was 20m horizontal, 20m uphill at 3 degrees, 10m horizontal at top, 20m downhill at 3 degrees, and 10m horizontal. Total distance of 80 meters.

    The group that did uphill + downhill improved from a maximum velocity of 8.25 +/- 0.69 meters per second to 8.60 +/- 0.68. They weren't world beaters at the beginning or the end, but the improvement is significant. The authors also documented changes in stride rate and stride length, but I think that's a fairly pointless exercise.
    This is apparently the only paper by Paradisis 2009 on the subject, but the structure of the research seems to be a bit different:

    Int J Sports Physiol Perform. 2009 Jun;4(2):229-43.
    Combined uphill and downhill sprint running training is more efficacious than horizontal.
    Paradisis GP1, Bissas A, Cooke CB.

    PURPOSE:
    This study examined the effects of sprint running training on sloping surfaces (3 degrees) on selected kinematic and physiological variables.
    METHODS:
    Fifty-four sport and physical education students were randomly allocated to one of two training groups (combined uphill-downhill [U+D] and horizontal (H)) and a control group (C). Pre- and posttraining tests were performed to examine the effects of 8 wk of training on the maximum running speed (MRS), step rate, step length, step time, contact time, eccentric and concentric phase of contact time (EP, CP), flight time, selected posture characteristics of the step cycle, and 6-s maximal cycle sprint test.
    RESULTS:
    MRS, step rate, contact time, and step time were improved significantly in a 35-m sprint test for the U+D group (P<.01) after training by 4.3%, 4.3%, -5.1%, and -3.9% respectively, whereas the H group showed smaller improvements, (1.7% (P<.05), 1.2% (P<.01), 1.7% (P<.01), and 1.2% (P<.01) respectively). There were no significant changes in the C group. The posture characteristics and the peak anaerobic power (AWT) performance did not change with training in any of the groups.
    CONCLUSION:
    The U+D training method was significantly more effective in improving MRS and the kinematic characteristics of sprint running than a traditional horizontal training method.
    The velocity improvement of ~4.5% seems to be consistent across researchers, but this is for up/down contrast overspeed, not overspeed by towing or downhill, and this is the reason that I have used contrast overspeed only. I have seen downhill only type overspeed as "all pain, no gain" so don't see a reason to use it, at least that's the way I've seen it in the past. What I do find interesting is that multiple investigators have found noncontrast overspeed to produce gains in the first 15-20 meters only, but it does produce gains. If you are really looking for a maxV boost, you would see this as a fail. But maybe we should see running slight downhill as a way to improve acceleration instead, maybe in the first part of Phase I?

  8. #18

    Re: Overspeed treadmill training by Yuri Grebenyuk?

    In what was was the structure different from what I described? Or am I misunderstanding you?

  9. #19

    Re: Overspeed treadmill training by Yuri Grebenyuk?

    The first study does not look at training effect.

    The second study, does not have a robust design. There needs to be a control group.

    Practical Applications
    This study demonstrates that both AST and RST produce training adaptations in elite female soccer athletes resulting in significantly improved 40-yd (36.6-m) maximal velocity. Although both AST and RST resulted in greater improvements in 40-yd (36.6-m) maximal velocity as compared to TST, the means by which the outcome occurred differed between the 2 training protocols. Therefore, the incorporation of 1 or the other of these 2 modalities into a speed enhancement training program must be based on the sport-specific demands on the athlete. Assisted, or supramaximal, sprint training increased the 40-yd (36.6-m) velocity by improving acceleration from standing to 5 yd (4.6 m) and from standing to 15 yd (13.7 m). Accordingly, this speed enhancement modality would best be used in athletic populations that participate in events requiring rapid acceleration over distances of 15 yd (13.7 m) or less. The RST protocol resulted in a comparable increase in 40-yd (36.6-m) maximal velocity; however, this improvement occurred as a result of faster acceleration from 15 to 25 yd (13.7–22.9 m) and 25 to 40 yd (22.9–36.6 m). Thus, RST protocols can be used with athletes participating in events that allow the attainment of maximal velocity over distances >15 yd (13.7 m).

  10. #20
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    Re: Overspeed treadmill training by Yuri Grebenyuk?

    http://japanrunningnews.blogspot.com...00-on-new.html

    Toyo sprint coach Michiaki Kajiwara explains: “This track allows you to learn how to move your legs and contact the ground at 9-second speed. The 1% slope is the key. If the slope is too severe it will alter the athlete’s running form on flat ground”

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