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Thread: Overspeed treadmill training by Yuri Grebenyuk?

  1. #1
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    Overspeed treadmill training by Yuri Grebenyuk?

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/2098...message_bubble

    Basically, there's a treadmill moving forward. And so his idea is to perform what is essentially overspeed.

    The main thing I was thinking was, if you are landing on an object that's already moving forward, wouldn't that add to the braking forces?

    If the athlete lands on a surface moving forward, wouldn't that create a resistance to their negative footspeed, which increases ground contact time, and takes more force and energy to get the contact point (foot) under and behind the COG?

    Also, since it is supplying additional horizontal force in such a manner, couldn't that stimulate inhibition of the sprinter's horizontal force? Maybe that is why he says the vertical forces produced by the athlete will be greatly increased - as the body will be producing less horizontal and thus put more into the vertical?

    Sounds problematic.

  2. #2

    Re: Overspeed treadmill training by Yuri Grebenyuk?

    I think your concerns are well-founded and were shared by Charlie.

    There's some interesting research showing a substantial benefit to overspeed training via slight downhill incline running (and in conjunction with uphill running). However, that seems to alter mechanics much less negatively than treadmill or towed overspeed.

  3. #3

    Re: Overspeed treadmill training by Yuri Grebenyuk?

    Quote Originally Posted by stylee View Post
    I think your concerns are well-founded and were shared by Charlie.

    There's some interesting research showing a substantial benefit to overspeed training via slight downhill incline running (and in conjunction with uphill running). However, that seems to alter mechanics much less negatively than treadmill or towed overspeed.
    The same research suggests that towing doesn't work, regardless of mechanics.

  4. #4

    Re: Overspeed treadmill training by Yuri Grebenyuk?

    Lkh, could you please share the publication(s) that provide evidence against towing? I'm familiar with the research on uphill-downhill running but haven't seen anything that suggests towing is a less effective means of achieving supramaximal speeds than downhill running. This seems counter-intuitive to me, as towing on a track should be more similar biomechanically to actual sprinting than downhill running and is also very similar to wind assisted running.

  5. #5

    Re: Overspeed treadmill training by Yuri Grebenyuk?

    Quote Originally Posted by robin1 View Post
    Lkh, could you please share the publication(s) that provide evidence against towing? I'm familiar with the research on uphill-downhill running but haven't seen anything that suggests towing is a less effective means of achieving supramaximal speeds than downhill running. This seems counter-intuitive to me, as towing on a track should be more similar biomechanically to actual sprinting than downhill running and is also very similar to wind assisted running.
    I doubt that you will get much agreement that being towed--by either another sprinter or a treadmill--is similar to actual sprinting, particularly with Charlie, John Smith, Steve Francis. Mike Young and others opposed, and I personally have never had a towing apparatus and would never go anywhere near it. There were a couple of old threads about contrast training, and some people other than me posted both some Russian research that the optimum incline/decline was 5 degrees (not the 1-3 degrees mentioned by Speed Dynamics) and that a couple of studies had been done on towing improvements on sprinters and the improvement was virtually none.

    This is a study done about specifically overspeed using downhill running (no towing, no up/down contrast):

    http://journals.humankinetics.com/Ac...Item/15576.pdf

    I am not aware of anything showing equivalent improvements from towing. I believe this is one of the papers (or similar) posted on here about overspeed in the past. But once again, it does not show any real improvement beyond 10 meters for overspeed:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21873906

  6. #6

    Re: Overspeed treadmill training by Yuri Grebenyuk?

    Thanks for that. I'm familiar with the first study. The second study used assisted accelerations of only 18m, so you would not expect improvements beyond early acceleration. I don't think you can conclude that downhill running is better than towing from these studies. I have stayed away from downhill running because it's very difficult to find a suitably sloped surface that is sufficiently even to make it feel safe to run at supramaximal speeds.

    Treadmill running is not a form of towing.

    I have built myself a pulley-based towing device that allows me to run up to 80m (or more if I use a longer cord) with relatively constant assistance if towed by my 9 year-old son. Using this device (which cost me about $10 to make) I can cover the 60m in about 0.2s faster than without it. If you saw a video of me running with this device you would not be able to tell that there is anything different. Video analysis suggests that half of the increase in speed comes from increased stride length and the other half from increased stride frequency. It feels very similar to running with a strong tailwind.

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    Re: Overspeed treadmill training by Yuri Grebenyuk?

    The 1080 sprint device, while I haven't used it myself, is capable of overspeed application via towing in the most incremental of velocity adjustments. This has profound theoretical implications and it will be interesting to see the extent to which it will be used by coaches.

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    Re: Overspeed treadmill training by Yuri Grebenyuk?

    I believe Charlie cited, at one point, research conducted by FIDAL questioning/disputing the potential effectiveness of towing though I never viewed the material.

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    Re: Overspeed treadmill training by Yuri Grebenyuk?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pioneer View Post
    I believe Charlie cited, at one point, research conducted by FIDAL questioning/disputing the potential effectiveness of towing though I never viewed the material.

    I think I have some of the papers but I will have to find them.

  10. #10

    Re: Overspeed treadmill training by Yuri Grebenyuk?

    I will post the link when I get to my computer, but the paper I'm thinking of on downhill overspeed is a 2009 one by Paradisis et al.

    The researchers created a platform that was 20m horizontal, 20m uphill at 3 degrees, 10m horizontal at top, 20m downhill at 3 degrees, and 10m horizontal. Total distance of 80 meters.

    The group that did uphill + downhill improved from a maximum velocity of 8.25 +/- 0.69 meters per second to 8.60 +/- 0.68. They weren't world beaters at the beginning or the end, but the improvement is significant. The authors also documented changes in stride rate and stride length, but I think that's a fairly pointless exercise.

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