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Thread: Andre DeGrasse to Altis

  1. #101

    Re: Andre DeGrasse to Altis

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Coon View Post
    Thoughtful and reasonable and less risky and it makes sense. Big companies don't specialize in these attributes however. For that reason it makes me wonder what exactly Puma wanted by sending him to Arizona?
    Have you considered that Andre's interest in Rio and Puma's might not neatly dovetail together? Have you considered the difference between Jenna Prandini who signed with Puma with Andre who signed with Puma? And Ameer Webb with ALTIS running the TWO fastest USA times in the 100m (legal and wind-aided tied with Gatlin), while Andre hasn't run a single 100 and will not in Jamaica this weekend either?

    New Balance (Bromell) wants to win and Nike (Webb, Gatlin) wants to win, and even Puma (Prandini, womens' #1 right now) wants to win if it doesn't involve beating Bolt. But Puma has Bolt yet for the Rio Olympics, and they might not be too thrilled about their investment being upstaged by their investment. Puma may indeed want Andre to develop and wait.

  2. #102

    Re: Andre DeGrasse to Altis

    Great great point, lkh, though some might accuse you of being overly cynical. However, it doesn't seem to be to be an implausible conspiracy to me

  3. #103
    Administrator Angela Coon's Avatar
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    Re: Andre DeGrasse to Altis

    I am missing your point? What is your point?

  4. #104
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    Re: Andre DeGrasse to Altis

    Quote Originally Posted by bmarcho1 View Post
    It could be "wrong" is "right"

    DAn got most of his ideas from Tom Tellez. Tellez got most of his ideas from Geoffrey Dyson's Book "Mechanics of Athletics". It traces back to solid ideas...

    however....

    I think what coaches say sometimes is deliberately different than every single physics principle. Coaching is about the proprioception of the the athlete. One can say or recommend cues which are simplifications, or over exaggerations , either way, in order to get angular motions and forces / fulcrums etc of the anatomy to work within a certain efficiency

    There's a MAJOR difference between documenting what happens during a sprint, and what you tell someone to inspire them to move according to that standard of form

    I think Dan, Charlie, Kersee, John Smith , Glen Mills, et al the effective coaches are good at saying things in ways that may not be exactly scientifically perfect, but get the athlete closer to scientific patterning.... I've seen people who can talk all types of amazing facts about running movement yet can't motivate an athlete and cant get an athlete to run smoothly, rhythmically and in the right angle/position/leverages.... Sometimes telling them things that are actually a departure from pure physics is necessary to change the athletes perception as a catalyst for biomechanical effiency and competitive fires
    Exactly right, over-cueing is simply a way to get the athlete closer to the ideal. Achieving the stated cue is not actually what the coach wants (in this case Pfaff) but somewhere between their current position/tech. model and the overcue.

  5. #105
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    Re: Andre DeGrasse to Altis

    I'm not sure how we got to the point where people were suggesting that DeGrasse was literally forced into choosing coaches for the purpose of having a great endorsement deal/contract but obviously in the figurative sense. Of course every athlete is responsible for their own decisions and the ramifications of those decisions whether good, bad or having minimal to no effect. I think we can all appreciate one's desire to establish a great future financially.

  6. #106
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    Re: Andre DeGrasse to Altis

    Quote Originally Posted by bmarcho1 View Post
    David Rudisha trains at his high school dirt track in Kenya with his high school coach, in the Rift Valley. He's the world record holder and has a huge endorsement deal. Maybe I'm wrong but theres too many examples of people not changing coaches after school
    And his performance in London in 2012 was, in my judgement, one of the brightest in the history of the sport.

  7. #107
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    Re: Andre DeGrasse to Altis

    Quote Originally Posted by bmarcho1 View Post
    It could be "wrong" is "right"

    DAn got most of his ideas from Tom Tellez. Tellez got most of his ideas from Geoffrey Dyson's Book "Mechanics of Athletics". It traces back to solid ideas...

    however....

    I think what coaches say sometimes is deliberately different than every single physics principle. Coaching is about the proprioception of the the athlete. One can say or recommend cues which are simplifications, or over exaggerations , either way, in order to get angular motions and forces / fulcrums etc of the anatomy to work within a certain efficiency

    There's a MAJOR difference between documenting what happens during a sprint, and what you tell someone to inspire them to move according to that standard of form

    I think Dan, Charlie, Kersee, John Smith , Glen Mills, et al the effective coaches are good at saying things in ways that may not be exactly scientifically perfect, but get the athlete closer to scientific patterning.... I've seen people who can talk all types of amazing facts about running movement yet can't motivate an athlete and cant get an athlete to run smoothly, rhythmically and in the right angle/position/leverages.... Sometimes telling them things that are actually a departure from pure physics is necessary to change the athletes perception as a catalyst for biomechanical effiency and competitive fires
    Well stated bmarcho1.

    One point of refute, however. To state that what coaches say sometimes is a deliberate departure from physics implies that these same coaches have a competent understanding of physics from which they intentionally depart.

    I'm not sure that there's many coaches who have a competent understanding of physics in the objective sense (I'm not counting received wisdom in the form of dogma and credo that is often the progeny of mentor:apprenticeship).

  8. #108

    Re: Andre DeGrasse to Altis

    Quote Originally Posted by ollie View Post
    Sharmer,

    Would like to hear you expand on Dan Pfaff as well. Curious how someone at such a high level could get it wrong? I can't expound on angular velocities and the like so hoping you can keep it simple.
    Fundamentally Newton’s laws are about how forces cause acceleration. A change in net force is the fundamental reason behind changes in rates of acceleration. One example is the emphasis on dorsi flexion of the foot, increased dorsi flexion improves horizontal velocity. This reasoning is incorrect, changes in net force will alter acceleration or velocity not changes in limb repositioning.

    The fact is no one know's what the best mechanical model for sprinters are. We don't have enough objective evidence to have a firm position.

  9. #109
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    Re: Andre DeGrasse to Altis

    Quote Originally Posted by Sharmer View Post
    Fundamentally Newton’s laws are about how forces cause acceleration. A change in net force is the fundamental reason behind changes in rates of acceleration. One example is the emphasis on dorsi flexion of the foot, increased dorsi flexion improves horizontal velocity. This reasoning is incorrect, changes in net force will alter acceleration or velocity not changes in limb repositioning.

    The fact is no one know's what the best mechanical model for sprinters are. We don't have enough objective evidence to have a firm position.
    Some unbiased clarification for those who are unclear, muscle force pulls bones and generates joint torque- which in turn generates human movement. The mechanical optimization of limb positions/postures allows for greater internal forces to be generated by way of the body's interaction with the environment (i.e, an athlete performing a pushup on the ground can increase/decrease joint torque by changing their orientation with respect to the ground and the optimization of their levers will effect the gross motion quality).

    This is where the discussion bifurcates, as one particular limb orientation may increase internal forces yet due to a mechanical disadvantage these internal forces will not equate to increased acceleration of the body away from the ground. Alternatively, optimizing the limb position so as to allow for the greatest acceleration away from the ground may occur at lower internal forces.

    Net force is the sum of all forces that act upon an object. In sprinting, we are accounting for external (wind/air, gravitational, friction, normal, spring/dampening regarding track surface...) and internal (by way of torque that generates limb movement, tension, strain, compression, shear, stiffness, elastic...).

    No doubt that there isn't enough currently available objective evidence that has been collected regarding the world's elite, however, I would argue that what is already known (from physics as it applies to human movement) is more than sufficient to create a model for arm action, pelvic position, leg action, foot action...

    As for the foot/ankle, what is known is that dorsiflexion lengthens/pre stretches the achilles which provides for greater elastic return during ground contact due to more stiffness and less structural deformation. Alternatively, running like a Ballerina in plantar flexion does the opposite and lengthens ground contact time. Therefore, optimal dorsiflexion allows for greater force transfer during ground contact in less time which results in faster sprinting.

    What is the Pfaff statement that is under review? Does someone have a link?

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    Re: Andre DeGrasse to Altis

    I was an intern at Altis during the time that DeGrasse showed up, and from what I could pick up he was personally interested in being a part of Atlis. He specifically mentioned that he liked the more "professional" environment, such as constant access to track-side therapists, a large concentration of coaches with experience and results, and an environment where his entire training group is legit (Ameer, Koffi, BJ, Anaso, etc).

    Its easy for someone to see a race and judge like an armchair QB, "oh yeah clearly his coaching change isn't working out." Meanwhile, people who make those assertions have no clue what is going on behind the scenes. Do you know what the training was like? Any injury or tissue restriction issues? Any significant outside/life stressors at play? All of these factors have a role.

    Anyone who knows track and field knows that no two seasons are alike, and comparing how you did this week vs that week of this season vs that season is a pretty poor predictor of eventual performance.

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