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Thread: Experiment in progress.

  1. #61
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    Re: Experiment in progress.

    Well, we had a mixed session yesterday.

    Athlete Y did a few starts over 2h (apparently did five times) and moved to 8h rhythms (91, 91, etc with last two 1m and 1.07m)
    Knee of the trial leg is in front during ground contact however shin is not exactly perpendicular to the ground.
    Touch-down times were quite good between 1.03-1.07, we are on target.

    Athlete X,
    Well,
    2x3x60 was smooth, dropping toes a bit overall quite happy with the execution.

    First 150 was very fast with good form last 20m started to loosing form as some athletes do when they are going for the finish line, hands moving side to side etc... I cannot stand the lack of disciplines/form through the finish line. (how many races were lost in the last 20m because of technically poor execution?)

    Well, second one was disaster (F!!!), 30m into the athlete stopped because experienced pain around TFL and origin of Vastus Lateralis.

  2. #62

    Re: Experiment in progress.

    Quote Originally Posted by wermouth View Post
    Athlete X,
    Well,
    2x3x60 was smooth, dropping toes a bit overall quite happy with the execution.

    First 150 was very fast with good form last 20m started to loosing form as some athletes do when they are going for the finish line, hands moving side to side etc... I cannot stand the lack of disciplines/form through the finish line. (how many races were lost in the last 20m because of technically poor execution?)

    Well, second one was disaster (F!!!), 30m into the athlete stopped because experienced pain around TFL and origin of Vastus Lateralis.
    This is something I regret not posting before the injury....

    There's an old thread somewhere on here, where I mentioned workouts John Smith had for indoors in January, which were 5X60+3X200, and the 200's were special endurance pace, not tempo. Charlie responded by posting that he didn't like mixed workouts like that because of the risk of injury. This type of workout isn't that unusual--Borzov did some of that--but my impression is that Charlie was right about the injury risk, as usual. Tony Wells had a 3X150 workout that was used for outdoors only that could be used instead; Everything else was push/explode short starts and explosive jumps.

  3. #63
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    Re: Experiment in progress.

    Quote Originally Posted by lkh View Post
    This is something I regret not posting before the injury....

    There's an old thread somewhere on here, where I mentioned workouts John Smith had for indoors in January, which were 5X60+3X200, and the 200's were special endurance pace, not tempo. Charlie responded by posting that he didn't like mixed workouts like that because of the risk of injury. This type of workout isn't that unusual--Borzov did some of that--but my impression is that Charlie was right about the injury risk, as usual. Tony Wells had a 3X150 workout that was used for outdoors only that could be used instead; Everything else was push/explode short starts and explosive jumps.
    I think there were two factors contributing to the injury.
    First factor was that I wasn't at the track when athletes were warming up they tend to waste time on socialising rather than preparing for the workout.
    Second one most important one that the first 150 was done with wind and athlete was going really fast. Even with 12min recovery, second 150 performed to the wind should have never happened in the first place.

    I thought that second run to the wind would be safe, unfortunately instead to going with my first thought that the first was fast enough and second even sub max would be unnecessary, I have decided otherwise and I have messed up.
    Bollocks.

    We had a meeting with national team physio, assessments of range of movements, state of tissue, contraction in the area, movement of tissue etc was done and everything seems to be fine. They were bit surprised that injury occurred giving the conditions of the athlete.
    Scan also was done. Unfortunately there was fluid around area and assessment of injury couldn't be fully performed.
    Second scan is going to be done next week.

    I am gutted.
    Last edited by wermouth; 12-05-2015 at 09:22 PM.

  4. #64
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    Re: Experiment in progress.

    Quote Originally Posted by wermouth View Post
    I think there were two factors contributing to the injury.
    First factor was that I wasn't at the track when athletes were warming up they tend to waste time on socialising rather than preparing for the workout.
    Second one most important one that the first 150 was done with wind and athlete was going really fast. Even with 12min recovery, second 150 performed to the wind should have never happened in the first place.

    I thought that second run to the wind would be safe, unfortunately instead to going with my first thought that the first was fast enough and second even sub max would be unnecessary, I have decided otherwise and I have messed up.
    Bollocks.

    We had a meeting with national team physio, assessments of range of movements, state of tissue, contraction in the area, movement of tissue etc was done and everything seems to be fine. They were bit surprised that injury occurred giving the conditions of the athlete.
    Scan also was done. Unfortunately there was fluid around area and assessment of injury couldn't be fully performed.
    Second scan is going to be done next week.

    I am gutted.
    Don't be too hard on yourself. Athletes must be held accountable for taking their process of advancement as seriously as any competent coach does.

    For this reason, the fact that you state they don't warm up as diligently as when you are there indicates that they do not yet possess as level of discipline commensurate with yours. Further, the fact that they are willing to lack professionalism in your absence also suggests they will demonstrate a lack of professionalism elsewhere.

    Be sure to generate this sort of discourse with your athletes, regardless how young they are, because unless you're a masochist I'm sure you have better things to do with your time than spend it coaching athletes who take the process (all of it, not just some of it) less seriously than you do.

  5. #65
    Administrator Angela Coon's Avatar
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    Re: Experiment in progress.

    Quote Originally Posted by wermouth View Post
    I think there were two factors contributing to the injury.
    First factor was that I wasn't at the track when athletes were warming up they tend to waste time on socialising rather than preparing for the workout.
    Second one most important one that the first 150 was done with wind and athlete was going really fast. Even with 12min recovery, second 150 performed to the wind should have never happened in the first place.

    I thought that second run to the wind would be safe, unfortunately instead to going with my first thought that the first was fast enough and second even sub max would be unnecessary, I have decided otherwise and I have messed up.
    Bollocks.

    We had a meeting with national team physio, assessments of range of movements, state of tissue, contraction in the area, movement of tissue etc was done and everything seems to be fine. They were bit surprised that injury occurred giving the conditions of the athlete.
    Scan also was done. Unfortunately there was fluid around area and assessment of injury couldn't be fully performed.
    Second scan is going to be done next week.

    I am gutted.

    I am sorry this has happened to you.
    In my opinion there is no excuse ever for a coach to NOT be paying attention to the warm up.
    If you don't like the way it goes during the warm up why are you not changing it?
    Pretend this is not about the athletes right now.
    What is your job? Because this is also about you and why you coach and what you expect or want or hope or dream for as a coach. Their success is yours and vice versa.
    Whether your paid or not, you have a job and you need to execute to the best of your ability to follow through with exactly what will give your athletes ( and therefor you) the best results.
    Remember that a larger group creates internal competition. If you don't have a larger group than you can sit on the athletes more or ask them to leave. Just remember there will be no end to the stupid crap athletes do if they are young and or inexperienced as it's their job. Over time the results sort themselves out. Just my opinion but think about it.
    As for running into the wind or not, judgement will be learned the hard way ( you likely will remember this lesson or you will keep repeating it over and over again right?) . Injuries happen and your job is to mitigate them as best as possible with the variables you may or may not have control over. LESS IS almost always more.
    And learn not to second guess yourself. Men tend to not be as instinctive as woman. Go with your gut and learn to go with your gut and learn to pay attention as you would have been right. Again, not the end of the world as learning happens with mistakes.

    About the hurdles.
    do a few over 2 and then a few over 3 or 4 and then go to 5 or 6 and then 8.
    Doing several over 2 and then going straight to 8 is a big jump. Never forget the value of progression in warming up, training, recovery. Things take time. Just my quick thoughts.
    As an athlete I was always in a rush. there are a lot of reasons for this but Charlie used to always say we can get there faster but it won't be better, it will just be faster.

  6. #66
    Administrator Angela Coon's Avatar
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    Re: Experiment in progress.

    Quote Originally Posted by lkh View Post
    This is something I regret not posting before the injury....

    There's an old thread somewhere on here, where I mentioned workouts John Smith had for indoors in January, which were 5X60+3X200, and the 200's were special endurance pace, not tempo. Charlie responded by posting that he didn't like mixed workouts like that because of the risk of injury. This type of workout isn't that unusual--Borzov did some of that--but my impression is that Charlie was right about the injury risk, as usual. Tony Wells had a 3X150 workout that was used for outdoors only that could be used instead; Everything else was push/explode short starts and explosive jumps.

    The injury has happened and it's getting looked after. That's the important thing to focus on now.

    Injuries happen with all things going properly. Coaches and athletes are not perfect.

    The first and only time I ran at Melrose I had lane 1. I felt amazing in the warm up. John Smith later told Charlie I looked like I was ready to run very fast. I did not make it over the first hurdle as I slipped and fell and crashed. Lane one was right next to the long jump pit. There was sand on the wood track and I slipped because of the sand. Turns out I had the wrong spikes. I was pissed. I felt it was Charlie's fault. He told me it was my fault. At my age he was right. But I had put him in charge. ( How did that work for me? It didn't) . The rest of my season was messed up due to that fall. It was not Charlie's fault. I should have known better but I counted on him without counting on myself.

    Be careful following other coaches 'alleged workouts" with out having all the facts. Also, when you follow any "recipe", you stop thinking and the judgement is gone.

    If I am cooking and stop thinking the food never turns out. The information of what volumes to do it for you as a coach in your head. You may or may not feel that work should be performed. Remember the application and combination of art and science can be unbeatable when solving problems.

  7. #67
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    Re: Experiment in progress.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Coon View Post
    I am sorry this has happened to you.
    In my opinion there is no excuse ever for a coach to NOT be paying attention to the warm up.
    If you don't like the way it goes during the warm up why are you not changing it?
    Pretend this is not about the athletes right now.
    What is your job? Because this is also about you and why you coach and what you expect or want or hope or dream for as a coach. Their success is yours and vice versa.
    Whether your paid or not, you have a job and you need to execute to the best of your ability to follow through with exactly what will give your athletes ( and therefor you) the best results.
    .
    Yes Angela, I cannot agree with you more on some points you have made.

    However, I don't know whether you have MISSED IT or just deliberately addressing key elements for the warm up/workout prescription for the readers.

    As far as I concern it's hard to supervise athletes you coach or make a changes to the program when you are NOT AT THE TRACK because of the work commitments.
    Isn't it?
    Not everyone can be in two places at once Angela, unless track is your workplace.

    And it's going to be even harder during competition phase.

    They are going to compete in different places at the same time, how we can supervise that?

    Just an example.

    Last year/season we went to regional champs I have watched athletes compete and was drifting between warm-up area and competition area where I had few field eventers.
    I got to the warm-up area 40min before heats and athlete X is seating down, I asked how warm-up is going? (I have discussed with guys what they need to do prior to the comp, I actually said that we'll do nothing different to what we have been doing on every training session so they will know where they are and what else need to be added to feel ready (maybe couple strides or skipping if really necessary))
    Well, I got this answer that athlete X didn't start warming up yet.
    Then parent comes and said that they will do short warm-up to preserve energy for the run (WTF?!!!)

    Ok, so you are the coach now. Fine! See you later.


    I think that some guys need to realise that we are together in the same boat.
    Last edited by wermouth; 12-07-2015 at 04:12 PM.

  8. #68
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    Re: Experiment in progress.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Coon View Post
    About the hurdles.
    do a few over 2 and then a few over 3 or 4 and then go to 5 or 6 and then 8.
    Doing several over 2 and then going straight to 8 is a big jump. Never forget the value of progression in warming up, training, recovery. Things take time. Just my quick thoughts.
    As an athlete I was always in a rush. there are a lot of reasons for this but Charlie used to always say we can get there faster but it won't be better, it will just be faster.
    The progression of the drills for our hurdle session as followed:
    Standing by the wall trial leg rotation 2x10 (each side)
    Standing by the wall trial leg slides (hurdle side way) 2x10 (each leg)
    Low hurdles 5 feet apart, 3 in between, x3/4
    High hurdles 16 feet apart, 3 in between, trial leg drills x4
    High hurdles middle with the spacing above, 3 in between x4
    Then we are going to do starts/accelerations.
    After that we are doing starts over the hurdles and then after that couple 5 strides in between over 4/5h in regular spacing and then we are moving to 8h rhythms,
    I thought that I wrote in earlier post how we are getting ready, or maybe not.
    Never mind.
    For now
    It is what it is.
    Last edited by wermouth; 12-07-2015 at 11:54 AM.

  9. #69
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    Re: Experiment in progress.

    Yesterday session was quite decent,
    Athlete Y did:
    (all hurdles at 1m height)
    2x20m
    3x2h
    3x3h
    3x5h
    2x40m
    3x2h was done individually.
    First rep of 3h was also done individually, next two were done with other hurdlers. I have an issue with lead arm. When athlete is moving arm from front to back, tends to move around really high, consequently compromising form during touch down.

    Auxiliary lifts in the form of circuit: 3x(Arnold press x10, hyper-extension x10, upright row x10, Russian twists x20)

    Stretching.

    Athlete X had a second scan today.
    (btw. We started treatment on Friday athlete had a ultrasound therapy to reduce swelling) with regular icing and treatment fluid is almost gone.
    Series of exercises and treatments are prescribed.
    According to specialists we should be able to run in spikes at the beginning of January.
    Last edited by wermouth; 12-08-2015 at 12:32 PM.

  10. #70
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    Re: Experiment in progress.

    Athlete X getting better with every session, performing static strength exercises on daily basis.
    We were able to do bike workout.

    Athlete Y
    We did today
    Falling accelerations 3x30
    Starts from lying on the chest 4x20
    4x flying 20 from 20 splits were:
    1: 1.03/1.05
    2: 1.03/0.99
    3: 1.01/0.97
    4: 1.00/1.01
    Than we did 3 flying 20 from 30
    1: 1.01/0.99
    2: 1.03/0.99 (dragged head for too long on this one)
    3: 0.97/0.98

    Keeps arms bit tight,
    We are at the point where relaxation is not fully there. Waiting for the moment where athlete is fully relaxed than will be able to move to another level.

    No gym unfortunately it was closed (prep for weight lifting comp)

    So, good stretching and home.

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