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Thread: Experiment in progress.

  1. #251
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    Re: Experiment in progress.

    Friday
    Athlete Y bit sore after first hurdle session, had to spend more time to warm up.
    2x4x30m, 2x4x40m was planned, we didn't finish set four.
    We were working on back side mechanics.
    Good improvements over the last couple of weeks re:technique.
    Ham curls 3x10
    Hip thrusts 3x20
    Nordic hamstrings 3x10
    300 abs.

    Today
    Easy bike spin 15min.
    Mobility 10min
    Bike blasts 6x(30" lv10/3'30" easy lv3)
    More mobility and flexibility
    200 hurdles walkovers/unders
    300/500 core.
    Stretching.

  2. #252
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    Re: Experiment in progress.

    Had a good session yesterday, especially Athlete X,
    We did 6x20m, 6x30m, 4x40m (planned six) Through out the session Athlete X was showing good consistency and form. I would like to see higher hip displacement talking about Athlete Y.
    Bounding 6x10 LRL...
    Clean progression
    Squat 3x8
    Three upper body exercises of athletes choice 3x10
    Ham curls single leg 2x10
    Gluteus activation 2x10
    Nordic hamstrings 2x10
    Stretching.

    I feel like guys are settled and finally getting into the rhythm.

  3. #253
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    Re: Experiment in progress.

    Athlete X did similar session to last week.
    Athlete Y
    2x4x10h, 5m apart at 84 cm, 3 steps in between.
    3x10h, 3m apart, at 76cm 1 step in between trial leg and middle.
    Rhythmically better than last week but still far from what I want from the athlete.
    Looking quite good off the hurdle, but to the hurdle quite poor reaching bit too far.

    Lots of work ahead of us.

  4. #254
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    Re: Experiment in progress.

    Friday session was quite good, looks like guys are responding well to the programme.
    2x4x30m, 2x4x40m.
    First set they were told to go fast but relaxed, they were working on individually given element which was assigned based on their technical circumstances.
    I said earlier that they are responding well to the programme, I think that is because there are couple changes which have happened this year already comparing to previous season.
    One, they were active during off season.
    Two, I have reduced weights session on Wednesday,
    Three, because (number two) in general feel fresher, they started to race each and other up the hill. Obviously that had to be stopped after first one however they told me that they feel quite good.

  5. #255
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    Re: Experiment in progress.

    Quote Originally Posted by wermouth View Post
    Friday session was quite good, looks like guys are responding well to the programme.
    2x4x30m, 2x4x40m.
    First set they were told to go fast but relaxed, they were working on individually given element which was assigned based on their technical circumstances.
    I said earlier that they are responding well to the programme, I think that is because there are couple changes which have happened this year already comparing to previous season.
    One, they were active during off season.
    Two, I have reduced weights session on Wednesday,
    Three, because (number two) in general feel fresher, they started to race each and other up the hill. Obviously that had to be stopped after first one however they told me that they feel quite good.
    Yesterday session was quite demanding for both athletes, all workout for Athlete X done on grass, Athlete did a few (6) 15m accelerations. Than we moved to tempo somewhere around boundary of extensive/intensive tempo 4, 3, 2x250, ending with rudiment over 15m and 300/300 which is 300 medball throws/ 300 abs.

    Athlete Y.
    3x10h 4.5m apart @84cm, 3 steps in between.
    There are couple of issues.
    First one, sinking in between the hurdles, not as much as last year nevertheless more than I would like.
    Second one, going too fast.
    3x10h 4.5m apart @91cm, 3 in between,
    Pretty much as above ony bloody faster, looks and sound to me like athlete has unfinished business with the event and wants to nail it now.
    Well, had to stop the workout and explained that we are going to take learned elements through the rest of the carrier therfore they need to be done right. If they are shit than it will affect our ability to run fast and consequently we will have to comeback and relearn the patterns and if that's the case then present training sessions are waste of bloody time.
    4x12h 3m apart @15inch, 3 in between, first one trying to go fast again crashed h7, had to stop and talk about changes of foot position during ground contact.
    Other three were very good.
    3x10 3m apart @84cm, 1 step in between for trial leg and through the middle.
    Very solid execution.
    Looks like Athlete Y got stronger and technically better. Last year we struggled with this very difficult drill.
    Trial leg was good but middle was excellent.
    100/300 workout.
    Very pleased.

    Monday was good too
    Kids are full of energy.
    6x20m, 6x30m, 6x40m
    Solid and at the same time smooth runs,
    Bounding for distance 6x10 ground contacts definitely see massive improvements over the last couple of weeks.
    Gym: Cleans are coming together, we are still performing progression.
    Squats 3x8
    Three upper body exercises of athletes choice
    300abs
    Ham/glute complex exercises x2 (Hamstrings curls (single leg) x12
    Hip thrusts (feet together, knees apart) x20, Hypertension (parallel) x10
    Nordic hamstrings x10
    Stretching.

    Overall athletes are recognising that they are in much better place than last year which makes the whole process even more exciting.
    Last edited by wermouth; 10-13-2016 at 04:38 PM.

  6. #256
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    Re: Experiment in progress.

    Quote Originally Posted by wermouth View Post
    Yesterday session was quite demanding for both athletes, all workout for Athlete X done on grass, Athlete did a few (6) 15m accelerations. Than we moved to tempo somewhere around boundary of extensive/intensive tempo 4, 3, 2x250, ending with rudiment over 15m and 300/300 which is 300 medball throws/ 300 abs.

    Athlete Y.
    3x10h 4.5m apart @84cm, 3 steps in between.
    There are couple of issues.
    First one, sinking in between the hurdles, not as much as last year nevertheless more than I would like.
    Second one, going too fast.
    3x10h 4.5m apart @91cm, 3 in between,
    Pretty much as above ony bloody faster, looks and sound to me like athlete has unfinished business with the event and wants to nail it now.
    Well, had to stop the workout and explained that we are going to take learned elements through the rest of the carrier therfore they need to be done right. If they are shit than it will affect our ability to run fast and consequently we will have to comeback and relearn the patterns and if that's the case then present training sessions are waste of bloody time.
    4x12h 3m apart @15inch, 3 in between, first one trying to go fast again crashed h7, had to stop and talk about changes of foot position during ground contact.
    Other three were very good.
    3x10 3m apart @84cm, 1 step in between for trial leg and through the middle.
    Very solid execution.
    Looks like Athlete Y got stronger and technically better. Last year we struggled with this very difficult drill.
    Trial leg was good but middle was excellent.
    100/300 workout.
    Very pleased.

    Monday was good too
    Kids are full of energy.
    6x20m, 6x30m, 6x40m
    Solid and at the same time smooth runs,
    Bounding for distance 6x10 ground contacts definitely see massive improvements over the last couple of weeks.
    Gym: Cleans are coming together, we are still performing progression.
    Squats 3x8
    Three upper body exercises of athletes choice
    300abs
    Ham/glute complex exercises x2 (Hamstrings curls (single leg) x12
    Hip thrusts (feet together, knees apart) x20, Hypertension (parallel) x10
    Nordic hamstrings x10
    Stretching.

    Overall athletes are recognising that they are in much better place than last year which makes the whole process even more exciting.
    Wermouth, something I've advised to other hurdle coaches: be careful with changing the distance between the hurdles, relative to competition spacing.

    Understanding that it has been a historic training method of hurdle coaches to use a variety of different spacings, my argument is that changing the spacing has significantly greater consequences than changing the height. The reason is due to the changes in attainable velocity between the hurdles and subsequent implications on rhythm and timing.

    As we know, the apex of importance for the elite hurdler is the rhythm and timing inherent to optimized performances. For this reason, I encourage you to consider leaving the spacing at competition spacing and only modulating the height of the hurdles and how many hurdles the repetition consists of.

  7. #257
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    Re: Experiment in progress.

    Quote Originally Posted by James Smith View Post
    Wermouth, something I've advised to other hurdle coaches: be careful with changing the distance between the hurdles, relative to competition spacing.

    Understanding that it has been a historic training method of hurdle coaches to use a variety of different spacings, my argument is that changing the spacing has significantly greater consequences than changing the height. The reason is due to the changes in attainable velocity between the hurdles and subsequent implications on rhythm and timing.

    As we know, the apex of importance for the elite hurdler is the rhythm and timing inherent to optimized performances. For this reason, I encourage you to consider leaving the spacing at competition spacing and only modulating the height of the hurdles and how many hurdles the repetition consists of.
    I disagree with you on matter of spacing.
    In hurdles velocity is highly dependant on rhythmical ability to cover the distance. Therefore rhythmical preparation/ development must go hand in hand with speed development. Talking here not only from conversation I had with top hurdles coaches but also from my own experience.
    Unfortunately I wasn't blessed with fastest hurdlers so far in regards of flat speed (except Athlete Y, faster than the rest) however rhythmical preparation allowed us to go mid/high 13s.
    There are plenty of top hurdlers who are running high 10sec over 100m however the rhythmical preparation allow them to make Olympic final.


    High of the hurdles has massive effect on prep for the take off, flight, ground contact, coming off the hurdle, force of the first step off the hurdle, depth of collapse, shoulder position, arm action, high of the knee over and off the hurdle and most importantly margin of error.
    Right now rhythmical preparation/ improvements must take the front sit and for that reason it is the main objective of our GPP to have reasonable gains in that particular area.

    Looking from the perspective of time last season we have done less rhythmical preparation and it took us about three weeks to get there. Well, I won't make the same mistake twice.

    It's easier to progress from where the rhythm has been already established than where rhythm is playing catch up to developed speed. That's the fact.
    So as you can see, there is no reason to go to full spacing without at least reasonable preparation.

    Back to spacing.
    Narrow spacing is creating environment where athlete must recover foot properly and plant without over-reaching for the take off, I don't know whether you remember that our main objectives are to improve mechanics in between hurdles and take off. Right know from my observation Athlete Y is meeting the objectives without realising it and what's even more encouraging is that I don't have to focus on those elements as much because they are sorting themselves out because of the spacing, at the same time giving me and the athlete that I coach opportunity to focus on something else.

    One of the forum member, I think T-slow used to run on quite narrow spacing to hit the desired time objectives, and was able to have very good results.

    Anyway, thanks for suggestions.

    Right now rhythm rhythm rhythm and one more time rhythm.
    We'll see.
    Last edited by wermouth; 10-13-2016 at 07:17 PM.

  8. #258
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    Re: Experiment in progress.

    Quote Originally Posted by wermouth View Post
    I disagree with you on matter of spacing.
    In hurdles velocity is highly dependant on rhythmical ability to caver the distance. Therefore rhythmical preparation/ development must go hand in had with speed development. Talking here not only from conversation I had with top hurdles coaches but also from my own experience.
    Unfortunately I wasn't blessed with fastest hurdlers so far in regards of flat speed (except Athlete Y, faster than the rest) however rhythmical preparation allowed us to go mid/high 13s.
    There are plenty of top hurdlers who are running high 10sec over 100m however the rhythmical preparation allow them to make Olympic final.


    High of the hurdles has massive effect on prep for the take off, flight, ground contact, coming off the hurdle, force of the first step off the hurdle, depth of collapse, shoulder position, arm action, high of the knee over and off the hurdle and most importantly margin of error.
    Right now rhythmical preparation/ improvements must take the front sit and for that reason it is the main objective of our GPP to have reasonable gains in that particular area.

    Looking from the perspective of time last season we have done less rhythmical preparation and it took us about three weeks to get there. Well, I won't make the same mistake twice.

    It's easier to progress from where the rhythm has been already established than where rhythm is playing catch up to developed speed. That's the fact.
    So as you can see, there is no reason to go to full spacing without at least reasonable preparation.

    Back to spacing.
    Narrow spacing is creating environment where athlete must recover foot properly and plant without over-reaching for the take off, I don't know whether you remember that our main objectives are to improve mechanics in between hurdles and take off. Right know from my observation Athlete Y is meeting the objectives without realising it and what's even more encouraging is that I don't have to focus on those elements as much because they are sorting themselves out because of the spacing, at the same time giving me and the athlete that I coach opportunity to focus on something else.

    One of the forum member, I think T-slow used to run on quite narrow spacing to hit the desired time objectives, and was able to have very good results.

    Anyway, thanks for suggestions.

    Right now rhythm rhythm rhythm and one more time rhythm.
    We'll see.
    Indeed, as I stated, rhythm and timing are the defining characteristics of the elite (more so than speed which is the difference between the males and females).

    Understand, however, (and I failed to clarify this in my previous post) that the specific reason changing the height is, in fact, far less consequential on rhythm and timing, then the distance between hurdles, is because the margins over which the heights are adjusted are minuscule in comparison to the distances in which the hurdle spacing is reduced.

    As you know, the distances over which heights are adjusted are measured in groupings of a few centimeters, whereas, the distance the spacings are reduced is far greater.

    This is the basis of my argument.

    Further, it's worth pointing out that the number of valid arguments against introducing stride length fixtures to control a pure sprinter's gate (such as sticks or cones on the track) cannot be categorically limited to pure sprinters. The hurdler's competition spacing is fixed/immutable, therefore, to change it by distances that far exceed any changes in height must be viewed similarly to the consequences a 100m sprinter, for example, faces if subjected to some fixed course that changes their natural stride length.

    As you know, the mere presence of hurdles already does this to a hurdler. As a result, I raise the point about exercising caution in doing more of the same.

    All said, there is no criticizing the results your hurdlers are experiencing; however, the teaching of the "top" coaches at any given time must be viewed objectively, otherwise it would be too easy for empiricist thinking to have failed to evolve from coaching practices a century old.

    As for the spatial dynamics of foot recovery and plant foot, narrow spacing is only one option. I encourage you to consider leaving competition spacing and reducing the height to find the relationship necessary to maintain the closest derivatives of competition rhythm/timing.

    It's one thing to formulate a near analogy to power speed drills for the hurdler, such as the myriad of hurdle drills that serve as viable options; however, to take a hurdle drill, such as narrowed spacing, that far reduces competition velocity and claim it as competition hurdle development option is similar to a sprint coach claiming the same about the Running A.

    So here I am making the distinction between power speed drills (skips, bounds, butt kicks, Running A...) and specific sprint training (pure accelerations, max velocity, speed endurance...)

    Again, this is something for you to consider with your hurdlers in so far as what you categorize as specific training and why.
    Last edited by James Smith; 10-13-2016 at 07:49 PM.

  9. #259
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    Re: Experiment in progress.

    Quote Originally Posted by James Smith View Post
    Indeed, as I stated, rhythm and timing are the defining characteristics of the elite (more so than speed which is the difference between the males and females).

    Understand, however, (and I failed to clarify this in my previous post) that the specific reason changing the height is, in fact, far less consequential on rhythm and timing, then the distance between hurdles, is because the margins over which the heights are adjusted are minuscule in comparison to the distances in which the hurdle spacing is reduced.

    As you know, the distances over which heights are adjusted are measured in groupings of a few centimeters, whereas, the distance the spacings are reduced is far greater.

    This is the basis of my argument.

    Further, it's worth pointing out that the number of valid arguments against introducing stride length fixtures to control a pure sprinter's gate (such as sticks or cones on the track) cannot be categorically limited to pure sprinters. The hurdler's competition spacing is fixed/immutable, therefore, to change it by distances that far exceed any changes in height must be viewed similarly to the consequences a 100m sprinter, for example, faces if subjected to some fixed course that changes their natural stride length.

    As you know, the mere presence of hurdles already does this to a hurdler. As a result, I raise the point about exercising caution in doing more of the same.

    All said, there is no criticizing the results your hurdlers are experiencing; however, the teaching of the "top" coaches at any given time must be viewed objectively, otherwise it would be too easy for empiricist thinking to have failed to evolve from coaching practices a century old.

    As for the spatial dynamics of foot recovery and plant foot, narrow spacing is only one option. I encourage you to consider leaving competition spacing and reducing the height to find the relationship necessary to maintain the closest derivatives of competition rhythm/timing.

    It's one thing to formulate a near analogy to power speed drills for the hurdler, such as the myriad of hurdle drills that serve as viable options; however, to take a hurdle drill, such as narrowed spacing, that far reduces competition velocity and claim it as competition hurdle development option is similar to a sprint coach claiming the same about the Running A.

    So here I am making the distinction between power speed drills (skips, bounds, butt kicks, Running A...) and specific sprint training (pure accelerations, max velocity, speed endurance...)

    Again, this is something for you to consider with your hurdlers in so far as what you categorize as specific training and why.
    I disagree, over number of years/decades we can see countless number of extremely talented young hurdlers (juniors) who are unable to make a impact over senior height due to change of the hight of the hurdle. If what you are saying was closer to the reality we would observe much greater number of hurdlers going in the range of 13.0 unfortunately as we all know it's not the case.

    Hight of the hurdle has got far greater consequences than distance on the result because it's influencing many more variables than spacing.

    First of all the natural straight length doesn't exist in hurdles. Also as I have pointed before, there are number of world class hurdles with less than average horizontal speed over flat distance but yet again making finals in the big competitions due to their ability to maximising their rhythm.
    And for that reason hurdle rhythm must take a priority in the development in the early parts of the preparation so you can have a good enough setup of moving towards full competition spacing.

    I won't be pushing Athlete Y into full competition spacing until he's ready (btw we have never run competition spacing in training before, EVER, it's always a minimum one foot in while running up to six hurdles and minimum of two feet when running six hurdles and above) there is no reason to risk poor mechanics because of the stretch between hurdles in early parts of GPP.
    Don't forget that rhythm is much easier to develop while in narrow/comfortable spacing.

    Also I disagree with you regarding keeping distance and reduce the hight. Let me explain why, reduction in height results in closer take off and closer touch down to/from the hurdle at the same time creating an artificial stretch in between hurdles. I tried it before I didn't like it what I saw so I scrapped it and never went back to it.

    The narrow spacing has far greater impact on developing hurdlers ability to improve their results than running A's because it's influencing many more components in athletes preparation such as frequency of the strides and all other I was thinking about in the previous post.

    Actually Andreas Behm talks about many things on which I have very similar point of view. I am trying to explain as to why the rhythm is crucial and how I am going about that particular problem.
    In World Speed Summit 2.
    He's clearly talking about it in Developing Hurdlers: #1 Tip
    "DO NOT RUSH athletes into race distance spacing!"

  10. #260
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    Re: Experiment in progress.

    Quote Originally Posted by wermouth View Post
    I disagree, over number of years/decades we can see countless number of extremely talented young hurdlers (juniors) who are unable to make a impact over senior height due to change of the hight of the hurdle. If what you are saying was closer to the reality we would observe much greater number of hurdlers going in the range of 13.0 unfortunately as we all know it's not the case.

    Hight of the hurdle has got far greater consequences than distance on the result because it's influencing many more variables than spacing.

    First of all the natural straight length doesn't exist in hurdles. Also as I have pointed before, there are number of world class hurdles with less than average horizontal speed over flat distance but yet again making finals in the big competitions due to their ability to maximising their rhythm.
    And for that reason hurdle rhythm must take a priority in the development in the early parts of the preparation so you can have a good enough setup of moving towards full competition spacing.

    I won't be pushing Athlete Y into full competition spacing until he's ready (btw we have never run competition spacing in training before, EVER, it's always a minimum one foot in while running up to six hurdles and minimum of two feet when running six hurdles and above) there is no reason to risk poor mechanics because of the stretch between hurdles in early parts of GPP.
    Don't forget that rhythm is much easier to develop while in narrow/comfortable spacing.

    Also I disagree with you regarding keeping distance and reduce the hight. Let me explain why, reduction in height results in closer take off and closer touch down to/from the hurdle at the same time creating an artificial stretch in between hurdles. I tried it before I didn't like it what I saw so I scrapped it and never went back to it.

    The narrow spacing has far greater impact on developing hurdlers ability to improve their results than running A's because it's influencing many more components in athletes preparation such as frequency of the strides and all other I was thinking about in the previous post.

    Actually Andreas Behm talks about many things on which I have very similar point of view. I am trying to explain as to why the rhythm is crucial and how I am going about that particular problem.
    In World Speed Summit 2.
    He's clearly talking about it in Developing Hurdlers: #1 Tip
    "DO NOT RUSH athletes into race distance spacing!"
    Wermouth, seems as if you are missing the fact that I am emphasizing the important of rhythm as much as you are.

    So again, I'll ask you to understand that if competition structure is the framework from which you are working backwards from then competition dynamics are the reference from which you must work towards.

    I am not refuting what coaches like Andreas Behm, Vince Anderson, or any other coach of elite hurdlers has done. I am, however, pointing out facts that are more immutable then what you are criticizing, however.

    For example, reducing spacing by 1-2 feet reduces the take-off point for obvious reasons, and by a greater quantity, then a reduction in hurdle height, of say 3-6cm, at competition spacing. The matter of key significance regarding the mathematics of our discussion is, in fact, the quantities (displacement either along the X or Y axis) involved.

    Again I will reiterate that I too am emphasizing rhythm/timing as the basis for my argument in each of these last posts. The difference is that my argument is based off of finding a different derivative of competition rhythm/timing by way of more minute, by comparison, displacements.

    I'd point your attention to the reason stride length is initially reduced in a S-L or L-S is because in both cases the start of the seasonal training begins with runs slower in velocity (either the sub-max accels, split 60's with intensity limits, or special endurance I or II runs). Then, as the intensity limits extend or the special endurance becomes shorter, the velocity naturally increases along with the stride length.

    by association, an alternate approach to conventional hurdle preparation is to preserve competition spacing yet reduce the height by a margin commensurate with what each hurdler requires to reduce the designated velocity/stride length (they can reduce their velocity because they don't need to sprint as fast to generate the take-off velocity required to clear the higher hurdle) as well as lessening the total number of hurdles (s-l in this case).

    All the while, any number of "power speed" drills that make use of hurdles remain key fixtures for the same reasons they always have.

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