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Thread: Spp2 se

  1. #1
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    Spp2 se

    I have several questions about this. Flash, you might know about this.

    I've checked across the board for specifics on SPP2, and trying to figure out what the SE would be like on those.

    Here is one such thread:
    http://www.charliefrancis.com/commun...-Short-to-Long

    Then, the post by lkh on this thread:
    http://www.charliefrancis.com/commun...98-spp2-advice

    It seems like there are two different answers here.

    TC suggests doing, I don't know if he's still talking about 1 set, or 2 sets, of 80,100,120. Seems like one set, but I am unsure. Anyhow, are those done at max? Or with a 30-40m intensity limit like Flash suggests? And what about the ~6min/15min rest Flash suggests? Or should this workout be done at max, like Charlie said? I'm confused.


    On the second link, lkh talks about what seems to be a different kind of SPP2 workout (seems like the beginning of SPP2, whereas the previous post would seem to be later in SPP2, correct?)
    It's something like 2-3x3x80 7/15min rest. Then mentions 3x80 with 15min rest.

    I'm confused as to whether the "split 80s", 2 or 3x3x80 - are these actually max??? Or intensity limited like the split 60s? 6-9 reps of 80m going for max seems like an awful lot, but I could be wrong. And then are they suggesting that you move up to 3x80, then finally go into longer distances like in the previous workout (80, 100, 120)?

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    Re: Spp2 se

    Quote Originally Posted by Brett View Post
    I have several questions about this. Flash, you might know about this.

    I've checked across the board for specifics on SPP2, and trying to figure out what the SE would be like on those.

    Here is one such thread:
    http://www.charliefrancis.com/commun...-Short-to-Long

    Then, the post by lkh on this thread:
    http://www.charliefrancis.com/commun...98-spp2-advice

    It seems like there are two different answers here.

    TC suggests doing, I don't know if he's still talking about 1 set, or 2 sets, of 80,100,120. Seems like one set, but I am unsure. Anyhow, are those done at max? Or with a 30-40m intensity limit like Flash suggests? And what about the ~6min/15min rest Flash suggests? Or should this workout be done at max, like Charlie said? I'm confused.


    On the second link, lkh talks about what seems to be a different kind of SPP2 workout (seems like the beginning of SPP2, whereas the previous post would seem to be later in SPP2, correct?)
    It's something like 2-3x3x80 7/15min rest. Then mentions 3x80 with 15min rest.

    I'm confused as to whether the "split 80s", 2 or 3x3x80 - are these actually max??? Or intensity limited like the split 60s? 6-9 reps of 80m going for max seems like an awful lot, but I could be wrong. And then are they suggesting that you move up to 3x80, then finally go into longer distances like in the previous workout (80, 100, 120)?
    TopCat was referring to what Flash said about the options of running, not volume.

    Quote Originally Posted by TopCat View Post
    One with repeats of say 80m or the other in ascending or descending distances e.g. 80, 100, 120 or 120,100,80 etc... It really all depends on your personal circumstances and the atheltes you are working with, thier age, development etc...
    Everything depends what you can handle re: volume.
    When you are going to do SE runs, speed needs to be fully developed so the speed end. is a proper speed end. and not just done in the 250/300 pace.


    I think Ikh was doing those 3x3x80 pretty fast is on 7-8/15min recovery, so no jogging. Maybe Ikh went through 80-100-120 there is no info in that particular post, its quite possible that Ikh performed those runs to smooth up the transition to 120s.
    Quote Originally Posted by lkh View Post
    When you can move to 2X3X80 is going to depend on your training age and the type of prep work you have done. You don't move up in length until you can maintain the pace of the SE work, but you want to move up to the true speed endurance (80-120 or 150 with long rest) as soon as you are able to handle it. The sooner you can get there, the more likely you will be able to hold together the last 30 meters of your 100 before the end of the season.
    There you go plenty valuable info in those two posts about: how and when to do what, to maximise already developed speed.
    Last edited by wermouth; 12-09-2014 at 03:54 PM.

  3. #3
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    Re: Spp2 se

    All those options would be legitimate depending on your needs. The faster you do the runs, obviously the less volume you can do and the longer your rest intervals. Charlie always talked about the contrast between height and breadth of the high intensity stimulus. Your ability to do a SE run all out will depend on your recovery and readiness status that day. If you're not ready to go all out, drop the intensity a notch and add more reps, which will reduce CNS load. To use a weigh lifting analogy, you might intend to work up to your 2 or 3 rep max that day, but as you go through the warm up, you know you're just not ready for it. Fine, keep the weights around 80% and do a couple sets in the 5-6 reps range and call it a day. Its still a solid, high intensity workout.

    For special endurance you have a lot of options. To maximize the height of the stimulus you could work in the 80-150m range with maximum acceleration and extended recoveries. However, if you need to reduce the CNS stress, you can extend the distance to, e.g., 250-300m, which naturally involves a shorter acceleration and lower intensity (max speed reached) even if you run that distance at a personal best. Or, you could stay in the 80-150m range and limit the acceleration distance, allowing you to do more runs with shorter rest intervals, effectively turning them more into split runs. I would say to first figure out how much intensity you can handle that day and work from there. The more advanced you are, and the higher your performance level, the less frequently you can maximize the height of the stimulus and the more you need to rely on breadth.

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    Re: Spp2 se

    I think lower level athletes would probably benefit more from concentrating on breadth by dropping the intensity a notch and accumulating more volume rather than trying to keep setting personal bests at 120 or 150m. It's similar to the elite level athletes but for different reasons. The lower level athletes need to develop more work capacity at high intensity (breadth) before they're ready to handle maximum intensity in SE.

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    Re: Spp2 se

    Quote Originally Posted by Flash View Post
    All those options would be legitimate depending on your needs. The faster you do the runs, obviously the less volume you can do and the longer your rest intervals. Charlie always talked about the contrast between height and breadth of the high intensity stimulus. Your ability to do a SE run all out will depend on your recovery and readiness status that day. If you're not ready to go all out, drop the intensity a notch and add more reps, which will reduce CNS load. To use a weigh lifting analogy, you might intend to work up to your 2 or 3 rep max that day, but as you go through the warm up, you know you're just not ready for it. Fine, keep the weights around 80% and do a couple sets in the 5-6 reps range and call it a day. Its still a solid, high intensity workout.

    For special endurance you have a lot of options. To maximize the height of the stimulus you could work in the 80-150m range with maximum acceleration and extended recoveries. However, if you need to reduce the CNS stress, you can extend the distance to, e.g., 250-300m, which naturally involves a shorter acceleration and lower intensity (max speed reached) even if you run that distance at a personal best. Or, you could stay in the 80-150m range and limit the acceleration distance, allowing you to do more runs with shorter rest intervals, effectively turning them more into split runs. I would say to first figure out how much intensity you can handle that day and work from there. The more advanced you are, and the higher your performance level, the less frequently you can maximize the height of the stimulus and the more you need to rely on breadth.
    I get it. But the one thing I'm still confused about is that 2-3x3x80 workout. Top speed should already be developed in SPP2 or at least almost there, and Charlie has said there is no need for intensity limits at that point, which of course makes sense.

    But I'm trying to apply it in my situation whereas my top speed isn't developed yet. So could I do that workout with intensity limits?
    And so, say the top speed was completely there, is it still a good idea to do 6-9 all out 80s??

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    Re: Spp2 se

    I don't understand what you mean that your top speed isn't there yet. Are you referring to your training phase?

    I think part of your confusion is conflating special endurance with maximum speed. They're different (albeit closely related) components. The concern about using intensity limits with speed work after maximum speed has been consolidated doesn't apply to SE. One of SE's benefits is precisely because it involves an intensity limit. For example, Charlie would deliberately use longer SE runs (e.g., 300m) for some of his athletes who couldn't handle as much CNS stress from the maximum speed work. He needed to draw a sharper contrast between Max and SE to let the CNS recover. Just because you're no longer using intensity limits in your max speed work in a particular training phase doesn't mean you can't use them with SE. In fact, you might need them more in SE because of the higher intensity in the max work.

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    Re: Spp2 se

    Quote Originally Posted by Flash View Post
    Just because you're no longer using intensity limits in your max speed work in a particular training phase doesn't mean you can't use them with SE. In fact, you might need them more in SE because of the higher intensity in the max work.
    Thanks for that answer. So what would the intensity limits (in general for an athlete of my level) be for the 2-3x3x80? Like 30-40?

  8. #8
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    Re: Spp2 se

    That's too specific to answer. There are a lot of factors that go into it such as your current training phase, what kind of speed work you're doing, etc. Realistically, most lower level sprinters are going to be at maximum speed or near it by 40m anyway, so I don't know if that would really be an intensity limit in your case. Without a coach monitoring you and helping plan your training, I would recommend starting conservatively with say 20m accelerations and opting for more reps (i.e. spilt runs). Build the base that way, then extend the accel limit, just like with speed work. However, if you're doing a short-to-long approach, keep the acceleration progression for SE behind your progression for max speed.

    Alternatively, keep the acceleration distance the same, e.g., 20-30m, and extend the maintain distance as your fitness improves. For example, begin with say 2x3x80 (20m acceleration) with walk back recovery between reps, progress to 2x2x120 (20m accel) with walk back recovery between reps, and then to 2x250 (20m accel) with full recovery between reps. The total volume is roughly the same, but the SE demands and average speed continually increase. I wouldn't copy that exact progression, but qualitatively it gets the point across. You could do that for say Phase 2 SPP, and then in Phase 3 you could move on to the 80-150m range at full burn with complete recovery.

  9. #9
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    Re: Spp2 se

    Quote Originally Posted by Flash View Post
    That's too specific to answer. There are a lot of factors that go into it such as your current training phase, what kind of speed work you're doing, etc. Realistically, most lower level sprinters are going to be at maximum speed or near it by 40m anyway, so I don't know if that would really be an intensity limit in your case. Without a coach monitoring you and helping plan your training, I would recommend starting conservatively with say 20m accelerations and opting for more reps (i.e. spilt runs). Build the base that way, then extend the accel limit, just like with speed work. However, if you're doing a short-to-long approach, keep the acceleration progression for SE behind your progression for max speed.

    Alternatively, keep the acceleration distance the same, e.g., 20-30m, and extend the maintain distance as your fitness improves. For example, begin with say 2x3x80 (20m acceleration) with walk back recovery between reps, progress to 2x2x120 (20m accel) with walk back recovery between reps, and then to 2x250 (20m accel) with full recovery between reps. The total volume is roughly the same, but the SE demands and average speed continually increase. I wouldn't copy that exact progression, but qualitatively it gets the point across. You could do that for say Phase 2 SPP, and then in Phase 3 you could move on to the 80-150m range at full burn with complete recovery.
    You're awesome Flash. I'm sure I'll have plenty of more questions for you come SPP3!

  10. #10
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    Re: Spp2 se

    Short-to-Long can take two basic forms. One is to simply start with just short distances and add longer distances as you progress through the phases. I think this is what most people think of when they think short-to-long.

    The other method approaches maximum speed from both directions, starting with short speed runs as well as long SE with short accelerations (maybe beginning as split runs), and then increasing the length of the speed runs while reducing the length of the SE runs. With this approach, the acceleration distances continually increase for both speed and SE (SE slightly lagging behind) until they arrive at close to the same point (e.g., 60-120m).

    Short-to-long primarily refers to the acceleration distance and not necessarily the total length of the run. That's why Charlie said the difference between short-to-long and long-to-short is not as dramatic as many people tend to think.

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