Page 3 of 9 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 82

Thread: 400m training

  1. #21
    Member boldwarrior's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Brisbane - Qld - Aust
    Posts
    3,128

    Re: 400m training

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Coon View Post
    The problem with long sled work is people tend to pull too much weight ( how do you guess the right weight? ) and pull too long of distance to maintain technical soundness.
    How do you control that R34?
    Each sled has it's own friction coefficient coupled with what the ground surface presents on a given day.
    Wet ground = less friction = more weight
    Long grass = more friction = less weight
    And so on.

    Best bet is to bring a few weights - trial and error.
    And to also be wise enough to STOP when you're over-reaching.

    Also - snow + no indoor facility suggestions
    1 - school hall - might be cement, but use joggers
    2 - community hall - as above
    3 - Building with internal stairs
    4 - Shopping center car park

    Re - type of approach, L-S, S-L. I would aim for L-S on a 100-200 program to get some speed going.
    With the right speed behind you, hitting your target in the 400m should really only take a few months of specific training. Esp with running 400's as a background. Depending on your racing calendar, you might even simply be able to race yourself into 400m shape once your 200m is fast enough?

  2. #22

    Re: 400m training

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Coon View Post
    Volle,
    The memebers here have given you some excellent advice. now I think you need to hunker down and read a little bit to understand some of the ideas behind the training and as one Boldwarrior has suggested get to work.
    I know recipes are wonderful but recipes for training will only take you so far. The people who have been responding to you have been the most loyal to the ideas here for a very long time and are not here to sell or push anything beyond the things they believe that have worked for them.
    I understand you want to be faster but it's gonig to take a greater understanding in what you have been doing vs what might need to change.
    Yes i am thankful for the advices i get. I think I know many of the ideas behind the training, but I want to hear the reason why something is done, and not take everything for granted. I dont doubt that these suggestions I have got works.
    I know its maybe impossible to give a me detailed program here, because everyone is different.

    Let me post a suggestion of a weekly program and hear what people say. As long as its not terrible wrong I am happy.

  3. #23

    Re: 400m training

    Agree with everyone else.

    The basic program I use, is my version of KK's, it needs modification sometimes but depends on the athlete. The important sessions are after rest days.

    Day 1 - Speed
    Day 2 - Endurance (generally extensive tempo)
    Day 3 - Off
    Day 4 - Specific Speed
    Day 5 - easy Endurance (easier than the Day 2)
    Day 6 - Hills (work up to Overtime)
    Day 7 - Off

    For instance in winter I will use Day 1 for speed and specific speed, as it is difficult for my athletes and myself to get together 3 times a week (most are Uni students)
    Would this look reasonable?

    1:6x60m full rec+strength/plyos
    2:6x200m 2 min rec/3x3x300m 1 min rep rec. 5 min set rec.
    3:Rest/active recovery
    4:7x100m. full rec+strength/plyos
    5:30 min easy jogging
    6:hills: 5x1 min. jogg slow down
    7:Rest/active recovery

  4. #24
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    475

    Re: 400m training

    Regarding your programme.
    Quote Originally Posted by volle View Post
    Would this look reasonable?
    1:6x60m full rec+strength/plyos
    2:6x200m 2 min rec/3x3x300m 1 min rep rec. 5 min set rec.
    3:Rest/active recovery
    4:7x100m. full rec+strength/plyos
    5:30 min easy jogging
    6:hills: 5x1 min. jogg slow down
    7:Rest/active recovery
    Now, how is your program going to work in cold conditions?
    If you've got snow then clearly you've got temperature way below 0C
    How/ will you be able to maintain relatively high muscle temperature doing 6x60m @ full rec and 7x100m@ full rec at such a low temperature and at the same time be able to facilitate the desired neuromuscular responses? (I do understand that full recovery is a minimum 10min or longer depends on the level of the athlete)
    Do you think that recovery is long enough in 6x200m 2 min rec/3x3x300m 1 min rep rec. 5 min set rec. what do you trying to achieve by such a short recoveries and such a big volume (2700m)?
    How they going to vary (recovery times and volume) across the season or even micro/ meso-cycles?
    How long hills (1min) with jog back and 30 min easy jogging are going to contribute to your improvements in 400m?

    Angela's comment below is a great suggestion.


    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Coon View Post
    Volle,
    I think you need to hunker down and read a little bit to understand some of the ideas behind the training and as one Boldwarrior has suggested get to work.
    I know recipes are wonderful but recipes for training will only take you so far. The people who have been responding to you have been the most loyal to the ideas here for a very long time and are not here to sell or push anything beyond the things they believe that have worked for them.
    I understand you want to be faster but it's gonig to take a greater understanding in what you have been doing vs what might need to change.

    It is going to be time well spent!!!


    I agree with
    Quote Originally Posted by boldwarrior View Post
    Also - snow + no indoor facility suggestions
    1 - school hall - might be cement, but use joggers
    2 - community hall - as above
    3 - Building with internal stairs
    4 - Shopping center car park
    Re - type of approach, L-S, S-L. I would aim for L-S on a 100-200 program to get some speed going.
    With the right speed behind you, hitting your target in the 400m should really only take a few months of specific training. Esp with running 400's as a background. Depending on your racing calendar, you might even simply be able to race yourself into 400m shape once your 200m is fast enough?
    Start reading
    Good luck
    Last edited by wermouth; 09-17-2013 at 09:46 PM. Reason: correction

  5. #25

    Re: 400m training

    Quote Originally Posted by volle View Post
    Would this look reasonable?

    1:6x60m full rec+strength/plyos
    I've never had a 24flat runner be able to finish 6x60m while maintaining speed throughout, and I would recommend avoiding plyos after this workout. Strength after a break is fine IMO.
    2:6x200m 2 min rec/3x3x300m 1 min rep rec. 5 min set rec.
    Since you didn't specify the speed, I'm going to guess these are pretty fast. If that's the case, you've got two consecutive hard days (esp including weights or plyos). Recovery from speed work is usually considered 2 days. Recovery from this workout could be 1-3 days depending on speed of reps.
    3:Rest/active recovery
    I'd like to see this workout switching with your day 2.

    4:7x100m. full rec+strength/plyos
    How fast? I don't understand the pupose of this workout.

    5:30 min easy jogging
    If you're trying to improve your top speed, I don't like this very much. If you're still training with 400/800 in mind, I like it.

    6:hills: 5x1 min. jogg slow down
    Yup.

    7:Rest/active recovery
    Yup.

  6. #26
    Member RB34's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    5,091

    Re: 400m training

    I have used long sled pulls several times - always with a empty sled or 5lb weight plate.

    2x3x100 2/10mins (empty sled)
    3x3x100 2/10 (empty sled)
    3x3x100 2/10 (5lb plate)
    2x3x100 2/10 (5lb plate)

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Coon View Post
    The problem with long sled work is people tend to pull too much weight ( how do you guess the right weight? ) and pull too long of distance to maintain technical soundness.
    How do you control that R34?

  7. #27
    Member DMA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
    Posts
    1,529

    Re: 400m training

    Quote Originally Posted by volle View Post
    Would this look reasonable?

    1:6x60m full rec+strength/plyos
    2:6x200m 2 min rec/3x3x300m 1 min rep rec. 5 min set rec.
    3:Rest/active recovery
    4:7x100m. full rec+strength/plyos
    5:30 min easy jogging
    6:hills: 5x1 min. jogg slow down
    7:Rest/active recovery
    Without looking at the weather, as it is a considering.

    Not sure of the 60's, I would possibly shorten them personal to 50 or under and and have a flying 30 + 20. I wouldn't do the plyos

    KK has his 6 x 200's at last 100m pace of 400, so could work. the 3x3x3 needs to be extensive tempo so at 70% of max pace.

    Rest/Active Recovery = day off.

    Not sure about 7x100, but am struggling to suggest an alternative. I would almost put the Day 2 session of 6x200 here, there is a suggestion on how to build up to this session somewhere on the forum

    30 minutes easy jogging, I have no problem with it - I have two 400m runners one doesn't like continuous runs whereas the other one does. If you enjoy it for mental reason do it

    Hills seem okay. Maybe something like 2 x 2 x 100 with slow jog down between reps and full recovery between sets

    Without knowing everything about you, which will never happen on a forum, at best we can give you guidelines so I hope this helps
    Continuing to learn is one thing in life that has to continue.

  8. #28

    Re: 400m training

    Quote Originally Posted by wermouth View Post
    Regarding your programme.

    Now, how is your program going to work in cold conditions?
    If you've got snow then clearly you've got temperature way below 0C
    How/ will you be able to maintain relatively high muscle temperature doing 6x60m @ full rec and 7x100m@ full rec at such a low temperature and at the same time be able to facilitate the desired neuromuscular responses? (I do understand that full recovery is a minimum 10min or longer depends on the level of the athlete)
    Do you think that recovery is long enough in 6x200m 2 min rec/3x3x300m 1 min rep rec. 5 min set rec. what do you trying to achieve by such a short recoveries and such a big volume (2700m)?
    How they going to vary (recovery times and volume) across the season or even micro/ meso-cycles?
    How long hills (1min) with jog back and 30 min easy jogging are going to contribute to your improvements in 400m?

    Angela's comment below is a great suggestion.





    It is going to be time well spent!!!


    I agree with

    Start reading
    Good luck
    These sessions are sessions kitkat has been using in his 400m training program. These sessions came to my mind after reading the lactate threshold post.
    Sorry that I makeu misunderstand because I said I could not do hills from nov-april. I have access to indoor track 7 days per week. Just that there is no hills indoor

    """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
    Wk1
    Day Session(s)
    1. 2-3 x 4x150m
    2. Long Hills + Weights
    3. Rest (or 1hr Gymnastics)
    4. 5x200 + Weights
    5. Long Hills
    6. Jog (15-30mins) + Weights
    7. Rest


    Wk2
    1. Sprints ladder 350, 300, 250, 200, 150, 100, 60, 50, 40, 30 - slow walkback recoveries.
    2. Jog 15-30min + Weights
    3. Rest (or 1hr Gymnastics)
    4. 2 (300+150) + Weights
    5. 5 x 200
    6. 2x5x100 tempo runthroughs, walkback + Weights
    7. Rest

    Wk3
    1. Long Hills
    2. 3x3x300m + Weights (Upperbody only)
    3. Rest (or 1hr Gymnastics)
    4 Rest (or Warm-up, warm-down) +NO WTS.
    5. Track fast, relaxed 300+4x60, 250+3x60, 200+2x60, & 150+1x60.
    6. Jog 15-20mins + Weights (Whole body)
    7. Rest

    Wk 4 (Repeats for Wk5):
    1. 300+60,50,40,30; 200+60,50,40,30; 150+60,50,40,30 (30sec rest between long rep and first short rep)
    2. Field Circuit (about 6mins) + NO WEIGHTS
    3. Rest (or 1hrs Gymnastics)
    4. 300+150, 150+150, 100+80, 80+60, 60+60 (all 30sec b/reps; full rec between sets) + Weights.

    5. Jog 15-20min
    6. 3-6 (2x60m Skip, 2x80m Sprint Buildups, 2x80m Sled Pull or Equivalent Light Resistance)
    7. Rest

    Wk 6
    Rest & Test Wk
    1. Rest
    2. Warm-up, Warm-Down
    3. Trials 300m (stand start), and 150m. + Weights (Lowest Reps Possible).
    4. Rest
    5. Trials 80m and 200m + Weights (As Normal, all exercises, for volume at 80-85% of 1rmax)
    6. Rest
    7. Rest

    REPEAT 6-WK CYCLE STARTING FROM WK 1.

    Now that's the basical outline. You have to monitor the athlete closely. I don't want to be prescriptive with times because every athlete will have to vary, depending on training years and ability and commitment. No-one is going to go from being a 50sec runner to 44sec in one year (unless they have previously been close to 44sec).

    I make zero demands during the first cycle. But I use that to calculate (also based on PBs and standard 400m models) what MIGHT be appropriate target times for the reps for each individual.

    The second time through the cycle, I ask more of the athlete, of course with consideration to all the things posted earlier on this thread.

    As I said, "absolute" speed is not really being develop. There is too much volume even in the speed-power cycle to classify the work as 100m develop-type stuff. But as the athletes get fitter, they can deliver some fairly impressive speed through those sessions - especially over the years. The best male 400m runner I had the honour to work with started to run some ridiculously quick times during some GPP sets. Then again his body adapted over the seven years (double periodised) we worked together.
    kk

    """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" """"

  9. #29

    Re: 400m training

    I've never had a 24flat runner be able to finish 6x60m while maintaining speed throughout, and I would recommend avoiding plyos after this workout. Strength after a break is fine IMO.
    That means the distance of the runs is too long? should be 40-50m instead?
    Why would you not recommend plyos after?
    I am thinking about easy plyos here like, splitjumps, squatjumps, 1 legged jumps. Nothing extreme.

    Since you didn't specify the speed, I'm going to guess these are pretty fast. If that's the case, you've got two consecutive hard days (esp including weights or plyos). Recovery from speed work is usually considered 2 days. Recovery from this workout could be 1-3 days depending on speed of reps.
    Seems like in kitkats program there are consecutive hard days. As long as the demand on the CNS is different it should be ok?

    4:7x100m. full rec+strength/plyos
    How fast? I don't understand the pupose of this workout.
    I guess the purpose is building speed endurance.

    30 min easy jogging
    If you're trying to improve your top speed, I don't like this very much. If you're still training with 400/800 in mind, I like it.
    How can 1 session per week of 30min jog interfere with speed development? I cant really see the big problem with it. It takes more to make any fiber conversions I guess. And since its a recovery day I cant really see many other sessions that will make a big difference.

  10. #30

    Re: 400m training

    Quote Originally Posted by volle View Post
    Would this look reasonable?

    1:6x60m full rec+strength/plyos
    2:6x200m 2 min rec/3x3x300m 1 min rep rec. 5 min set rec.
    3:Rest/active recovery
    4:7x100m. full rec+strength/plyos
    5:30 min easy jogging
    6:hills: 5x1 min. jogg slow down
    7:Rest/active recovery
    Without looking at the weather, as it is a considering.

    Not sure of the 60's, I would possibly shorten them personal to 50 or under and and have a flying 30 + 20. I wouldn't do the plyos

    KK has his 6 x 200's at last 100m pace of 400, so could work. the 3x3x3 needs to be extensive tempo so at 70% of max pace.

    Rest/Active Recovery = day off.

    Not sure about 7x100, but am struggling to suggest an alternative. I would almost put the Day 2 session of 6x200 here, there is a suggestion on how to build up to this session somewhere on the forum

    30 minutes easy jogging, I have no problem with it - I have two 400m runners one doesn't like continuous runs whereas the other one does. If you enjoy it for mental reason do it

    Hills seem okay. Maybe something like 2 x 2 x 100 with slow jog down between reps and full recovery between sets

    Without knowing everything about you, which will never happen on a forum, at best we can give you guidelines so I hope this helps
    Thanks.

    1.Why you wouldnt do the plyos?
    2. Yes session 2 I have from kitkat
    3. If you would put the 6x200 session on day 4, then what session would you typically do on day 2? Extensive tempo @ 75%
    4. In kitkats program he suggest long hills like 50 sek-1 min. why would you only do 4x20 sec hills? For me this workout would be quite easy. normally I would do 8x20 sec hills.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •