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Thread: Need some help with GPP.

  1. #31

    Re: Need some help with GPP.

    Good comment by RB34, I was working with an intensity limit of 20m. I daresay we could add the 3rd set if I dropped the IL to 10m or might even get away with 15m. I agree with lr1400 re volume, obviously its different for individuals but 400m speed and 2000m of tempo twice per week are a good guidline.

  2. #32
    Member boldwarrior's Avatar
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    Re: Need some help with GPP.

    Not just myself, but many who i have coached, Not all the time, but, Hit a training PB over 280m (two straights and one bend) on our Third run. That's 840m.
    I've hit a training PB over 400m in my 3rd rep many times.

    It's greatly varied for many different folks.

    We have had great successes by the following rule over these distances
    1 - volume max is 3 efforts
    2 - If you hit a pb or equal PB in the 1st rep then your 2nd rep is a 150m only
    3 - If you hit a PB or equal PB in the 2nd rep then you STOP
    4 - If you're feeling flat - just run the 3, but with greatly reducing intensity. eg, lets say pb = 32. Then aim for 35-36 but see if you can either, start slow and come home fast, or start fast and cruise home etc.

    Typically - if you hit your 3rd rep into a PB - expect to take it easier in a few sessions afterwards and RECOVER.

    PB = season PB, not overall lifetime pb

    This is just an example of what you can do - don't be held back by fear.

  3. #33
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    Re: Need some help with GPP.

    Quote Originally Posted by boldwarrior View Post
    Not just myself, but many who i have coached, Not all the time, but, Hit a training PB over 280m (two straights and one bend) on our Third run. That's 840m.
    I've hit a training PB over 400m in my 3rd rep many times.

    It's greatly varied for many different folks.

    We have had great successes by the following rule over these distances
    1 - volume max is 3 efforts
    2 - If you hit a pb or equal PB in the 1st rep then your 2nd rep is a 150m only
    3 - If you hit a PB or equal PB in the 2nd rep then you STOP
    4 - If you're feeling flat - just run the 3, but with greatly reducing intensity. eg, lets say pb = 32. Then aim for 35-36 but see if you can either, start slow and come home fast, or start fast and cruise home etc.

    Typically - if you hit your 3rd rep into a PB - expect to take it easier in a few sessions afterwards and RECOVER.

    PB = season PB, not overall lifetime pb

    This is just an example of what you can do - don't be held back by fear.
    Hello. Can you please clarify?

    1. Does 3 effort mean 3 sets?
    2. with "2nd rep is a 150m only", if I'm doing split SE runs with like 4x60s, I just have to make sure the reps don't add up to exceed 150m, right? (so maybe 2x60+30 or something?)
    3. Does "run the 3" mean run 3 sets or run a 300m?

    Thank you.

  4. #34
    Member RB34's Avatar
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    Re: Need some help with GPP.

    Don't forget this is a great time to work on tech issues and get in extra work while the intensity is lower. I'll give you another example when making the transition to outdoors - instead of doing 1-3 reps of SE work each week toss in submax SE work ex: 5-6x150 it allows extra recovery and a chance to get more practice reps etc. I believe Charlie gave this example many years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by kwave View Post
    Thank you for your clarification.

  5. #35
    Member boldwarrior's Avatar
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    Re: Need some help with GPP.

    Quote Originally Posted by RB34 View Post
    Don't forget this is a great time to work on tech issues and get in extra work while the intensity is lower. I'll give you another example when making the transition to outdoors - instead of doing 1-3 reps of SE work each week toss in submax SE work ex: 5-6x150 it allows extra recovery and a chance to get more practice reps etc. I believe Charlie gave this example many years ago.
    Yes agreed and is what I hope came across in my post above.

  6. #36
    Member boldwarrior's Avatar
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    Re: Need some help with GPP.

    Quote Originally Posted by kwave View Post
    Hello. Can you please clarify?

    1. Does 3 effort mean 3 sets?
    2. with "2nd rep is a 150m only", if I'm doing split SE runs with like 4x60s, I just have to make sure the reps don't add up to exceed 150m, right? (so maybe 2x60+30 or something?)
    3. Does "run the 3" mean run 3 sets or run a 300m?

    Thank you.
    3 efforts is 3 x sets.
    150m of split runs might for you simply be 2 x 60s
    Run the three is run 3 x sets.

  7. #37

    Re: Need some help with GPP.

    Hi Bold, I'm confused (doesn't take much) are you referring to 3 runs over 280m, dropping down to 150 if you hit a pb or am I way off the mark.

  8. #38

    Re: Need some help with GPP.

    Quote Originally Posted by RB34 View Post
    Don't forget this is a great time to work on tech issues and get in extra work while the intensity is lower. I'll give you another example when making the transition to outdoors - instead of doing 1-3 reps of SE work each week toss in submax SE work ex: 5-6x150 it allows extra recovery and a chance to get more practice reps etc. I believe Charlie gave this example many years ago.
    I remember seeing him say that in a thread. Could easily transition from split 60 and 80s --> 6x120 --> 5x150 -->..........2-3x120-150

  9. #39
    Member RB34's Avatar
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    Re: Need some help with GPP.

    Comment from the forum:
    in the forum review, CF says ben seldom ran over 500-600m in any given HI session, however in vertical integration graph it has speed volumes of 2000m-2400m per week, which if doing 3 HI session means an average of 670-800m per session.

    so which one is it????

    Charlie answers back:
    Depends on timing, athlete level and training type and time of year. Example 3 x 300 is not unreasonable in a long to short set up. that's 900m right there without any other preliminary sprints counted (starts etc)
    Speed End sessions will almost always have a higher vol than pure speed regardless of the approach.
    As an example of pure speed, Ben ran:
    WU
    4 x 30m block starts
    80, 100, 120, 150 with complete recovery.
    That's a total of 570m but it's tougher than any other session he had of higher speed volume, since, at times, all the runs were at world record speeds. Such a session would require a 10day period of sub-max work to recover from.
    A sub-max session might occasionally have been 6 x 150 which is 900m

    Comment from Charlie:
    6min break is significant. I'd call that controlled speed work. Guess it depends how you define things. We did 6 x 150 with a 250 slow walkaround (maybe 4min br) as easy speed work at times, either to replace a faster planned session or as a means of recovery.
    It would also depend on the timing in the week. Often intensive tempo occurs between speed sessions rather than in place of one of them- that may be where the difficulty lies.

    Question:
    That makes perfect sense in your template. I think where people, including myself at times, have gotten confused is just labeling anything under a certain % as a bad thing. I remember you mentioning before that you have even used it as a way of extreme unloading (instead of dropping to 95%, to even lower than that), but counting it as a "speed" session rather than as a "tempo" session.

    What are your thoughts on the volume aspect that arises when you change the intensities? It seems as-if you can get more productivity out of a slightly higher volume workout that utilizes a bit less intensity, but similar rests versus relying solely on intensity as the main mode of development. I'm talking about developmental athletes BTW and more in the early special prep phases (versus pre-comp or comp).

    Legend answers back:
    I wouldn't want to cause more confusion by trying to define the volume change but it will for sure be higher. Example from our training; Speed 95 to 100%, 4 x 30m blocks, 80, 100, 120, 150. = 570m
    slightly sub max 4 x 30m blocks, very sub max 6 x 150. = 1020m

    Question:
    After the indoor season has ended and the first outdoor meet is 4 weeks later what should be done in that amount of time? Id like to know what everyone does.

    The last 3 weeks of our indoor season we tapered and this is the first week of preparation for outdoor and our first meet is in 4 weeks so we have 4 full weeks of training.

    What should be done in the next few weeks. First this week i was thinking about bumping up the extensive tempo and slightly bumping up the volume of my special enduracne since the last special enduracne session we did was 3x120 i was thinking something like 3x150 but cutting the rest a little so we are not going as fast. As for the short speed i am not quite sure since i really wanna give my Nervous system a rest since i havent been feeling that fast lately.

    And last of all how about lifting?

    Legend answers back:
    If you're feeling a bit "burned', you might move to something like 6 x 150 sub-max, with a walk-around (250m) recovery while dropping the short stuff for a week to 10 days. Extensive tempo can be increased for the first two weeks or so. Thoughts?

    Question:
    ok.. so an increase in ext. tempo as well as sub max 150's.
    Do you have any suggestions for my other workout of the week since i will not be doing the short speed?

    Also what would you recommend for lifting as far as volume and intensity?

    Answers back:
    Depending on the state of your recovery, you could use several different scenarios for your other speed session, assuming you're a 100 and 200m man.
    How about a few options- remember these are HIGHLY SPECULATIVE and depend on many other training factors, but for the sake of arguement:

    A: Still very CNS drained: 150, 250, 150 very sub-max (below the 95th percentile by time) for form only with complete recovery- 12 to 20 min between runs, depending on performance level.

    B: Partially recovered after a few days: 120, 150, 120 at 95 to 97% of best time, with complete recovery- 15 to 25 min between runs depending on performance level.

    C: Almost fully recovered: 80, 100, 120, 150 at 97 to 99th percentile with complete recovery with breaks up to 15min, 25 min, and 35 min between the runs.

    In each case, there is at least some reduction of CNS stress, as starts, pick-up drills, etc are missing (these have been honed during the indoor period), and a few missed sessions won't affect anything. They'll be added back later as recovery is completed but only as far as needed to maintain them, since you've already spent considerable time on these areas and are better served using your CNS resourses to perfect top speed and speed endurance qualities. THOUGHTS??

    More later: G2G...

  10. #40
    Member boldwarrior's Avatar
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    Re: Need some help with GPP.

    Quote Originally Posted by PhilG View Post
    Hi Bold, I'm confused (doesn't take much) are you referring to 3 runs over 280m, dropping down to 150 if you hit a pb or am I way off the mark.
    Yes.
    So as eg
    1st 280m = season pb or equal pb
    2nd effort is 150 (or similar)

    Or
    1st 280m is sub best
    2nd 280m is equal or pb
    3rd rep dropped

    Or
    1st rep is sub best
    2nd rep is sub best
    3rd is either sub best or best

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