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Thread: Technical advice for a young hurdler?

  1. #221
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    Re: Technical advice for a young hurdler?

    November 20th.

    Our school just had its first meet...performances were astounding across all board. Fastest guy went 6.84, followed by 6.94, 6.95. One 7.0x interlaced with 3+ 7.1s. Crazy to see the display of talent from my teammates.

    I went 7.63. I'm disappointed but that might be the harsh reality for me. The way I approach a hurdle, run in between, is completely different than a flat run. I never "open up" in the 60m. I have the ability to run very fast but the rhythm isn't there to show it. My teammate made a bet with someone that I would have run 7.2 given my hurdle time being 8.16. "I've seen you you run faster in an accel than that" - she is very right. I don't think my 60m flat time will ever come close to reflecting my general and specific motor abilities.

    A cool note - while waiting for the races to start, someone said to me "Hey you're the hurdler right". It was cool that someone was able to distinguish me apart. He added "The hurdle from Charle Francis forums right?" It was very neat having someone recognize me irl. He was telling me that he couldn't figure out the end of the registration process to get an account to post here... but he's perused the board. Small world; the reach of CF forums is wide and far.

  2. #222

    Re: Technical advice for a young hurdler?

    I'm looking forward to seeing your indoor race film, keep working hard man!

  3. #223
    Administrator Angela Coon's Avatar
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    Re: Technical advice for a young hurdler?

    Quote Originally Posted by jccc110m View Post
    November 20th.

    Our school just had its first meet...performances were astounding across all board. Fastest guy went 6.84, followed by 6.94, 6.95. One 7.0x interlaced with 3+ 7.1s. Crazy to see the display of talent from my teammates.

    I went 7.63. I'm disappointed but that might be the harsh reality for me. The way I approach a hurdle, run in between, is completely different than a flat run. I never "open up" in the 60m. I have the ability to run very fast but the rhythm isn't there to show it. My teammate made a bet with someone that I would have run 7.2 given my hurdle time being 8.16. "I've seen you you run faster in an accel than that" - she is very right. I don't think my 60m flat time will ever come close to reflecting my general and specific motor abilities.

    A cool note - while waiting for the races to start, someone said to me "Hey you're the hurdler right". It was cool that someone was able to distinguish me apart. He added "The hurdle from Charle Francis forums right?" It was very neat having someone recognize me irl. He was telling me that he couldn't figure out the end of the registration process to get an account to post here... but he's perused the board. Small world; the reach of CF forums is wide and far.
    Jccc110m,
    It's not as easy to transfer your speed to the hurdles as you think. Your progression thus far as been mind blowing in many ways. Don't make the mistake of wanting too much too fast or quickly ( no pun intended). It takes time and you are young and it just will not immediately translate as there are many other things at play. Clearly you are doing well and you are getting better and it's the very beginning of the year as well. Well, the beginning of the indoor season. Where was the meet? that will also tell us something.

  4. #224
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    Re: Technical advice for a young hurdler?

    Jan 31st. Some philosophy + training updates.



    Current SB sits at 8.24 (PB from 2015: 8.16). That came from essentially 2 and half weeks of no specific hurdle work because of Holidays Break. One week out I remembered that season opener was in one week's time so I mastered my sleeping, nutrition, recovery, and training. 8.24 was the result. This weekend I ran 8.32/8.31 at York. Good stuff coming considering that we haven't done too too much out of blocks (ie. hurdle acceleration). One month out from Championship season. This is how I plan to be competitively ready in 4 weeks:

    (1) Master my sleeping routine. Get as close to 10 hours a day as possible. Make sure I sleep around 11-1130 which I feel is optimal for me.
    (2) Nutrition. Have been weak on this but strapping down to a few special things will make things flow. No sugar, no 'bad foods'. Don't put myself in a situation where I deviate from nutrition. Essentially to creating a bodily environment where low-grade inflammation is as low as possible.
    (3) Therapy. Plain and simple. Massage + CHIRO. Have a minor(?) hip strain - around ab region on right side//more adductor on left side - anyone have any suggestions on what I can proactively ask therapist team for? Getting consistent therapy along with getting optimal amounts of sleep will solve most things.
    (4) Improving mechanics. I don't like to say training anymore; that implies work. It is the athlete that is most mechanically-sound that will run fast, not the athlete who trains the most (or hardest). Charlie Francis: survival of the laziest, do what is absolutely necessary and nothing more! Improvements must be present in both hurdling and flat sprinting. Improving basic flexibility (esp. Hamstrings and Hip Flexors//Quad). Flexing ankle on top of the hurdle. Using my trail arm. Take off foot position. The biggest challenge for flat sprinting is being able to step over and open up.

    Philosophy:

    When I was 15, I started strength training. Basically the premise of becoming more explosive. My concept could be captured as being "as strong as possible while being as light as possible." I've moved away from that for what I thought to be a more micro-understanding of how to be more athletic in my sport. The greatest in that pursuit came this past fall when I became less of an athlete and tried being more a coach. I watched all the athletes on my team, emailed other coaches... etc. I thought I was equipping myself with not only what was necessary to run fast but to help others. Deadly wrong.

    The more I 'understood' sprinting, the more sprinting was darkened (I believe there will be no deviation in any pursuit for understanding). Listened to podcasts, directed a (cursory) understanding of anatomy/biomechanics. Read articles.. all the good stuff. The delineation of push/pull athletes, lumbo-pelvic posture importance, extension of shoulder and elbow so as to get an elastic return thus reducing contractile requirement... energy dissipation.. acceleration, top-speed.. I tried understanding all that. then I ran 7.6 in the 60m.

    Then I realized all that stuff doesn't matter -- If you're an athlete. An athlete on my team once in a discussion of training theory told me that the top athletes in the world don't know why they are fast, they just are. And they have much to benefit by understanding the sport more. I told him it's disheartening to see other people on the team not attending to any drills they do... talking in between med ball circuits... because they are just gifted. I felt like my efforts of attending deliberately to every training element was violated because no matter what I do I can never be as fast as them. About that he said "I care the most about the drills, and I ran the fastest."

    That was in November. He inspired my development of training theory.

    But it's all moot I find.

    My coach told me it's all a big U. We are always trying to understand more about what we can do to affect the success of training. But after years of learning, searching, understanding, you'll find that you returned to the same spot, doing those exact same things you did before you knew the 'why'. But he says that among the purposeless of all that, you gain an absolute understanding of why you do that, and you can master the basics even better.

    And that's where I find myself to be. I am at a time where I have ceased interest in 'bigger and better things'.

    Just this week, the simplicity of the 15 year old me five years ago ushered me to lift heavier weights. For a 4x4 squat in the weight room, I went as heavy as I could - 295lbs. I decorated my training theory with so many things. Eccentrics - they build sarcomeres in series; extending the arm backwards to allow your thoracic spine to rotate to re use energy as much as possible; even trying to consciously achieve a parallel shin angle!! But in this cosmic pursuit I forgot the very basics. I forgot that that the simplest expression of power - jumping - just required you to be capable of using large amounts of force very quickly while remaining very light. Squat heavy, do fast movements with low weight, and keep the number on the scale low. Should sprinting be any different? One can say it's just 40-50 'jumps' - just repetitively producing force.

    And cues are bullshit! I don't believe cues work. An athlete is so shitty at doing an A skip. You cue him. He gets better. You move onto something more complicated. Apply a cue until he masters that. So on so forth. But even if you practice this systemically along with true sprinting, its effects are next to nil. Sure there is a transfer of skill... but most cues are mostly there for justifying the purpose of a coach. Most coaches cue because they think that if they aren't ... they're not doing their job!

    I think there is only one thing a sprinter should hold in mind - run fast. Run faster. Always run faster - within the session, between sessions. Seek out environments that allow you to faster. Wind works. Races work. The purpose of training sessions is that. It's just an opportunity for you to run faster. You can stroke your ego or worship your belief that cues will help... but how many times have cues successfully worked, improving certain performance in drills but not leading to an athlete getting faster? I am one.

    I'm fast in the hurdles because I try to get from one barrier to the next as fast as I can. On the flat I think: run over the other knee, arms to face, be relaxed... Here's a simple cue for someone like me: JUST. RUN. FASTER.

    And that's what I've recently loved about Charlie.
    He doesn't talk about technique.
    How many cues does he use? Don't know.
    But from what I've read he's just an observer with a stopwatch, meticulously manipulating the workout so that the athlete can be exposed to scenarios that allow them to run fast.
    Ben Johnson... ankle isn't cocked on the backside... foot travels up noticeably while knee moves forward... not textbook mechanics. 9.79...

    That is why becoming excellent takes time... you need numerous opportunities to run fast... I believe there is no shortcut...

    A paraphrase from Charlie: "Hitting the ground with large forces doesn't mean you're running fast, but running fast does."

    He mastered the understanding of that very very basic of becoming a great sprinter. He doesn't decorate his coaching philosophy with impressive, darkening concepts but associates with those dull-looking truths. Maybe that's why Charlie's philosophy isn't very popular. The average coach/athlete wants to hear about something they can't understand, as they are more impressed. Vainglory is successful... but success usually comes from the un-glorified.
    I respect Charlie so much.
    Ciao,
    Jackson
    Last edited by jccc110m; 01-31-2016 at 09:06 PM.

  5. #225
    Administrator Angela Coon's Avatar
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    Re: Technical advice for a young hurdler?

    I think there is only one thing a sprinter should hold in mind - run fast. Run faster. Always run faster - within the session, between sessions. Seek out environments that allow you to faster. Wind works. Races work. The purpose of training sessions is that. It's just an opportunity for you to run faster. You can stroke your ego or worship your belief that cues will help... but how many times have cues successfully worked, improving certain performance in drills but not leading to an athlete getting faster? I am one.

    I'm fast in the hurdles because I try to get from one barrier to the next as fast as I can. On the flat I think: run over the other knee, arms to face, be relaxed... Here's a simple cue for someone like me: JUST. RUN. FASTER.


    ( All of your actions need to revolve around the idea of how am I going to run faster today at practice. At the same time you also need to accept that it might not be the case but hold in mind the bigger picture and remember that consistency is something to strive for)
    Last edited by Angela Coon; 01-31-2016 at 11:58 PM.

  6. #226
    Administrator Angela Coon's Avatar
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    Re: Technical advice for a young hurdler?

    Jccc110mh

    Without having met Charlie you have described how he coached quite accurately.

    Don't be so sure Charlie's philosophy has not been noted by countless coaches as well as athletes. Whether people are willing to admit his influence is an entirely different aspect of a persons character. I'm not sure coaching in general necessarily cultivates the finest attributes of character development.

  7. #227
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    Re: Technical advice for a young hurdler?

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Coon View Post
    Jccc110mh

    Without having met Charlie you have described how he coached quite accurately.

    Don't be so sure Charlie's philosophy has not been noted by countless coaches as well as athletes. Whether people are willing to admit his influence is an entirely different aspect of a persons character. I'm not sure coaching in general necessarily cultivates the finest attributes of character development.
    Right on Ange.

    Can you talk more about the relationship between coaching and character development? Being a good coach is important; being a good person is just as important.

  8. #228

    Re: Technical advice for a young hurdler?

    Quote Originally Posted by jccc110m View Post
    Jan 31st. Some philosophy + training updates.



    Current SB sits at 8.24 (PB from 2015: 8.16). That came from essentially 2 and half weeks of no specific hurdle work because of Holidays Break. One week out I remembered that season opener was in one week's time so I mastered my sleeping, nutrition, recovery, and training. 8.24 was the result. This weekend I ran 8.32/8.31 at York. Good stuff coming considering that we haven't done too too much out of blocks (ie. hurdle acceleration). One month out from Championship season. This is how I plan to be competitively ready in 4 weeks:

    (1) Master my sleeping routine. Get as close to 10 hours a day as possible. Make sure I sleep around 11-1130 which I feel is optimal for me.
    (2) Nutrition. Have been weak on this but strapping down to a few special things will make things flow. No sugar, no 'bad foods'. Don't put myself in a situation where I deviate from nutrition. Essentially to creating a bodily environment where low-grade inflammation is as low as possible.
    (3) Therapy. Plain and simple. Massage + CHIRO. Have a minor(?) hip strain - around ab region on right side//more adductor on left side - anyone have any suggestions on what I can proactively ask therapist team for? Getting consistent therapy along with getting optimal amounts of sleep will solve most things.
    (4) Improving mechanics. I don't like to say training anymore; that implies work. It is the athlete that is most mechanically-sound that will run fast, not the athlete who trains the most (or hardest). Charlie Francis: survival of the laziest, do what is absolutely necessary and nothing more! Improvements must be present in both hurdling and flat sprinting. Improving basic flexibility (esp. Hamstrings and Hip Flexors//Quad). Flexing ankle on top of the hurdle. Using my trail arm. Take off foot position. The biggest challenge for flat sprinting is being able to step over and open up.

    Philosophy:

    When I was 15, I started strength training. Basically the premise of becoming more explosive. My concept could be captured as being "as strong as possible while being as light as possible." I've moved away from that for what I thought to be a more micro-understanding of how to be more athletic in my sport. The greatest in that pursuit came this past fall when I became less of an athlete and tried being more a coach. I watched all the athletes on my team, emailed other coaches... etc. I thought I was equipping myself with not only what was necessary to run fast but to help others. Deadly wrong.

    The more I 'understood' sprinting, the more sprinting was darkened (I believe there will be no deviation in any pursuit for understanding). Listened to podcasts, directed a (cursory) understanding of anatomy/biomechanics. Read articles.. all the good stuff. The delineation of push/pull athletes, lumbo-pelvic posture importance, extension of shoulder and elbow so as to get an elastic return thus reducing contractile requirement... energy dissipation.. acceleration, top-speed.. I tried understanding all that. then I ran 7.6 in the 60m.

    Then I realized all that stuff doesn't matter -- If you're an athlete. An athlete on my team once in a discussion of training theory told me that the top athletes in the world don't know why they are fast, they just are. And they have much to benefit by understanding the sport more. I told him it's disheartening to see other people on the team not attending to any drills they do... talking in between med ball circuits... because they are just gifted. I felt like my efforts of attending deliberately to every training element was violated because no matter what I do I can never be as fast as them. About that he said "I care the most about the drills, and I ran the fastest."

    That was in November. He inspired my development of training theory.

    But it's all moot I find.

    My coach told me it's all a big U. We are always trying to understand more about what we can do to affect the success of training. But after years of learning, searching, understanding, you'll find that you returned to the same spot, doing those exact same things you did before you knew the 'why'. But he says that among the purposeless of all that, you gain an absolute understanding of why you do that, and you can master the basics even better.

    And that's where I find myself to be. I am at a time where I have ceased interest in 'bigger and better things'.

    Just this week, the simplicity of the 15 year old me five years ago ushered me to lift heavier weights. For a 4x4 squat in the weight room, I went as heavy as I could - 295lbs. I decorated my training theory with so many things. Eccentrics - they build sarcomeres in series; extending the arm backwards to allow your thoracic spine to rotate to re use energy as much as possible; even trying to consciously achieve a parallel shin angle!! But in this cosmic pursuit I forgot the very basics. I forgot that that the simplest expression of power - jumping - just required you to be capable of using large amounts of force very quickly while remaining very light. Squat heavy, do fast movements with low weight, and keep the number on the scale low. Should sprinting be any different? One can say it's just 40-50 'jumps' - just repetitively producing force.

    And cues are bullshit! I don't believe cues work. An athlete is so shitty at doing an A skip. You cue him. He gets better. You move onto something more complicated. Apply a cue until he masters that. So on so forth. But even if you practice this systemically along with true sprinting, its effects are next to nil. Sure there is a transfer of skill... but most cues are mostly there for justifying the purpose of a coach. Most coaches cue because they think that if they aren't ... they're not doing their job!

    I think there is only one thing a sprinter should hold in mind - run fast. Run faster. Always run faster - within the session, between sessions. Seek out environments that allow you to faster. Wind works. Races work. The purpose of training sessions is that. It's just an opportunity for you to run faster. You can stroke your ego or worship your belief that cues will help... but how many times have cues successfully worked, improving certain performance in drills but not leading to an athlete getting faster? I am one.

    I'm fast in the hurdles because I try to get from one barrier to the next as fast as I can. On the flat I think: run over the other knee, arms to face, be relaxed... Here's a simple cue for someone like me: JUST. RUN. FASTER.

    And that's what I've recently loved about Charlie.
    He doesn't talk about technique.
    How many cues does he use? Don't know.
    But from what I've read he's just an observer with a stopwatch, meticulously manipulating the workout so that the athlete can be exposed to scenarios that allow them to run fast.
    Ben Johnson... ankle isn't cocked on the backside... foot travels up noticeably while knee moves forward... not textbook mechanics. 9.79...

    That is why becoming excellent takes time... you need numerous opportunities to run fast... I believe there is no shortcut...

    A paraphrase from Charlie: "Hitting the ground with large forces doesn't mean you're running fast, but running fast does."

    He mastered the understanding of that very very basic of becoming a great sprinter. He doesn't decorate his coaching philosophy with impressive, darkening concepts but associates with those dull-looking truths. Maybe that's why Charlie's philosophy isn't very popular. The average coach/athlete wants to hear about something they can't understand, as they are more impressed. Vainglory is successful... but success usually comes from the un-glorified.
    I respect Charlie so much.
    Ciao,
    Jackson
    Wow! Very impressive post, especially for a 20 year old! Are you an English major?

  9. #229
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    Re: Technical advice for a young hurdler?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neospeed View Post
    Wow! Very impressive post, especially for a 20 year old! Are you an English major?
    Psychology major :- )
    One of my favourite books ever is Speed Trap. Great English.

  10. #230

    Re: Technical advice for a young hurdler?

    Quote Originally Posted by jccc110m View Post
    Psychology major :- )
    One of my favourite books ever is Speed Trap. Great English.
    I couldn't agree more!
    Which lane are you in in the above video?

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