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Thread: Over-reaching

  1. #1

    Over-reaching

    There was a guy who asked a question about over-reaching and I think that CF said it was basically the same as overtraining and that it was counterproductive. I thought that planned over-reaching could be used as a way to elicit greater performance gains than those obtained by waiting for full recovery before each HI session.

    In this article: http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/...rtraining.html

    Kelly Bagget says that if you train without full recovery to acheive a small degree of performance regression, you can take a longer deloading period to allow supercompensation to occur. Also, these gains would surpass those made during the same period of time by someone waiting for full recovery between each HI workout.

    Why is it that this is discouraged in the Vancouver video?

  2. #2
    Member John's Avatar
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    From my Aus seminar notes

    The best way I can relate my understanding of the CNS is that it is like a cup. You never want it to overflow! This means you should always play it safe. You are better to slightly under train than over train. Supercompensation may not be as great but it will still be ok. Never go for the great super workout as the best possible outcome from it is a return to normal. There is no need to see the ultimate levels of an athlete in training.

  3. #3
    Administrator Charlie Francis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ntr View Post
    There was a guy who asked a question about over-reaching and I think that CF said it was basically the same as overtraining and that it was counterproductive. I thought that planned over-reaching could be used as a way to elicit greater performance gains than those obtained by waiting for full recovery before each HI session.

    In this article: http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/...rtraining.html

    Kelly Bagget says that if you train without full recovery to acheive a small degree of performance regression, you can take a longer deloading period to allow supercompensation to occur. Also, these gains would surpass those made during the same period of time by someone waiting for full recovery between each HI workout.

    Why is it that this is discouraged in the Vancouver video?
    Everything is a matter of degrees. for example, we ran European meets in a grouping, so the short period between meets weould be less than required over a long period, so the group of meets because one big stimulus fron which a supercompensation could be achieved. you can see the description of this in Ben's 1987 prep for Rome (5 meets in 13 days followed by 10day taper) A longer period of comp would have been too much to bounce back from.

  4. #4
    Ok, thanks very much.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Francis View Post
    we ran European meets in a grouping, so the short period between meets weould be less than required over a long period, so the group of meets because one big stimulus fron which a supercompensation could be achieved. you can see the description of this in Ben's 1987 prep for Rome (5 meets in 13 days followed by 10day taper) A longer period of comp would have been too much to bounce back from.
    Do you think this sort of thing can be emulated by a combination of races and time trials (where the TT is a normal race warmup + 100m) to get roughly the same effect? For example, the following:

    11-Jul Race
    12-Jul
    13-Jul
    14-Jul TT
    15-Jul
    16-Jul
    17-Jul TT
    18-Jul
    19-Jul
    20-Jul
    21-Jul TT
    22-Jul
    23-Jul
    24-Jul
    25-Jul Race
    26-Jul
    27-Jul
    28-Jul
    29-Jul 10 day taper starts here
    30-Jul
    31-Jul
    1-Aug
    2-Aug
    3-Aug
    4-Aug
    5-Aug
    6-Aug
    7-Aug
    8-Aug Final Race

  6. #6
    Administrator Charlie Francis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lkh View Post
    Do you think this sort of thing can be emulated by a combination of races and time trials (where the TT is a normal race warmup + 100m) to get roughly the same effect? For example, the following:

    11-Jul Race
    12-Jul
    13-Jul
    14-Jul TT
    15-Jul
    16-Jul
    17-Jul TT
    18-Jul
    19-Jul
    20-Jul
    21-Jul TT
    22-Jul
    23-Jul
    24-Jul
    25-Jul Race
    26-Jul
    27-Jul
    28-Jul
    29-Jul 10 day taper starts here
    30-Jul
    31-Jul
    1-Aug
    2-Aug
    3-Aug
    4-Aug
    5-Aug
    6-Aug
    7-Aug
    8-Aug Final Race
    I was more interested in the final taper and we were able to used those races as a combination to achieve that and get paid vs staying home and training only. You can simply prepare as normal and use the big hit of the 10 day taper to do the job. The advantage there is that you have the flexibility to do the session that suits the given day by conditions and physical readiness rather than being locked into 100% efforts on all the dates .

  7. #7
    Member RB34's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Francis View Post
    I was more interested in the final taper and we were able to used those races as a combination to achieve that and get paid vs staying home and training only. You can simply prepare as normal and use the big hit of the 10 day taper to do the job. The advantage there is that you have the flexibility to do the session that suits the given day by conditions and physical readiness rather than being locked into 100% efforts on all the dates .
    The 10 day taper is a big workout, I did it last Saturday and the final 150 was brutal.

  8. #8
    Administrator Charlie Francis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RB34 View Post
    The 10 day taper is a big workout, I did it last Saturday and the final 150 was brutal.
    Sure is if you're going fast but the effects should normally be felt the next day and not during. Were you relaxed enough in the runs or were you fighting towards the end?

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Francis View Post
    Sure is if you're going fast but the effects should normally be felt the next day and not during. Were you relaxed enough in the runs or were you fighting towards the end?
    I don't know if it's the same as what RB34 is talking about, but when I do speed/speed endurance work I don't really feel very tired muscularly while I'm doing it but my CNS can feel pretty burnt after I do a good part of the workout.

  10. #10
    Member RB34's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Francis View Post
    Sure is if you're going fast but the effects should normally be felt the next day and not during. Were you relaxed enough in the runs or were you fighting towards the end?
    Yes all the runs were relaxed but I was racing against my training partner for the 80-100-120-150 from a 10m fly in. I took two days off and had to cut back the lifting.

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