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Thread: Arbeit's Strikes Again!

  1. #51
    There is evidence that lactate actually helps to buffer acidosis during activity.

    Cyclists have long felt that short harder efforts to 'open up the legs' as part of their warmup improve performance for stuff like time trials and I suspect it has to do with this effect.

    If you can generate some lactate to get the buffering systems online but do it in such a way as to NOT generate excessive fatigue, that should help.

    Lyle

  2. #52
    Member John's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lylemcd
    There is evidence that lactate actually helps to buffer acidosis during activity.

    Cyclists have long felt that short harder efforts to 'open up the legs' as part of their warmup improve performance for stuff like time trials and I suspect it has to do with this effect.

    If you can generate some lactate to get the buffering systems online but do it in such a way as to NOT generate excessive fatigue, that should help.

    Lyle
    Interesting and certainly something worth investigating in training.

    Lactate is an amazing thing. I have been baffled till the last few days about my reaction to it versus comments of others. In my case I donít get the burn others report, although I do know what they mean from having done 20 rep squats, in my case my legs just get heavier and move slower.

    It appears ass I suspected it is age related 9Iím 45). I do get it just in a different way which is the heavy, slow legs.

    I spoke to one of the guys at work who at 58, and despite most of the winter out with injury, will have a good shot at going under 60 sec for 400m this season. He has exactly the same feeling as me last week I got it real bad. With 80m to go I was gone and I had to concentrate really hard to keep making my legs move. It was like running in water

    I asked if this had changed since he as in his 20's (as I personally have nothing to compare it with) and he thought for a moment and said yes it has.

    His PBís are
    52.8 which he did 3 times

    Day 1
    52.8 in heats
    64 sec 400m hurdles (first time doing them)
    52.8 in final

    Day 2
    800m @ 1.58 then 400m @52.8

    interestingly he maintained his speed pretty well into his 40's as he ran 54.1 in mid 40's

  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by John
    Interesting and certainly something worth investigating in training.
    I'm a speed skater and I often find that my second set of speed endurance work (might be something like 800 negative splitting the second 400 or a set of lap on/lap off with one lap hard/one lap easy) is easier than the first.

    My legs don't tie up as as much towards the end of the set, I still have something to push with, etc.

    Lyle

  4. #54
    Member John's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lylemcd
    I'm a speed skater and I often find that my second set of speed endurance work (might be something like 800 negative splitting the second 400 or a set of lap on/lap off with one lap hard/one lap easy) is easier than the first.

    My legs don't tie up as as much towards the end of the set, I still have something to push with, etc.

    Lyle
    I guess the key as you stated is If you can generate some lactate to get the buffering systems online but do it in such a way as to NOT generate excessive fatigue, that should help. which will be an individual thing (appropriate distance and rest) that may require a bit of time to ascertain hence my reference to doing that in training rather than jumping straight into it at next race situation.

    DEFINTELY worth a look at though.

  5. #55
    Member boldwarrior's Avatar
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    Haha,
    when our old training group were doing 800's, our main session involved 3 x 400's - on grass - and pretty much flat stick - goal was to do the three in pretty much the same time, approx 10-15min recovery's between each.
    Now, often, as we got into shape, somebody at some time would pull off a PB during these 3 x 400's, and typically it would mostly be the last 400m. We used to do pretty shitty warmups and the 1st 400m was typically say 1sec off ones best, 2nd 400m was typically close to Pb most times, and the 3rd was either suffering bad or close to Pb shape or Pb shape (Pb for grass anyway)
    Perhaps this was due to not being 400m runners? our speed was only around 50-52sec on grass (depending on athlete).
    Still, we often called that 1st 400m - "blowing out the cobwebs" and it did get you into rhythm for the following efforts.

  6. #56
    Senior Member kitkat1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lylemcd
    I'm a speed skater and I often find that my second set of speed endurance work (might be something like 800 negative splitting the second 400 or a set of lap on/lap off with one lap hard/one lap easy) is easier than the first.

    My legs don't tie up as as much towards the end of the set, I still have something to push with, etc.

    Lyle
    On the hill session we (not me ) used to do of 3 x 2x360m Hill, we often got PBs on the second and third set.

    On the power circuit, which was around 5-8mins long, depending who did it, we also routinely got faster time for the second circuit than the first.

    I think John's probably correct suggesting it has something to do with activating the buffering mechanism. But perhaps also it's just that the fear factor gives way (in the daunting face of the coach's scowl ) to a submission to the fact that, hey, we can stay here all day and night if needs, but that last set will be done before we abandon this hill

  7. #57
    Member John's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kitkat1
    On the hill session we (not me ) used to do of 3 x 2x360m Hill, we often got PBs on the second and third set.

    On the power circuit, which was around 5-8mins long, depending who did it, we also routinely got faster time for the second circuit than the first.

    I think John's probably correct suggesting it has something to do with activating the buffering mechanism. But perhaps also it's just that the fear factor gives way (in the daunting face of the coach's scowl ) to a submission to the fact that, hey, we can stay here all day and night if needs, but that last set will be done before we abandon this hill
    KK did the warmup for hills vary from that for the track sessions?

    I do my hills differently (4 x approx 75sec with 15 mins between) and due to the surroundings warm up used to be different, on those occasions 2nd rep was always the money one and I put it down to as Bold says rep 1 blowing the cobwebs out.

    Interestingly the last 2 x I did long hills (after 9 weeks SPP which included overdistance work on the track) with the same warm up as with track sessions I changed it and did accelerations first

    week 1
    3 x 4 x 40 rec 4.5 / 10
    1 x long hill

    week 2
    2 x 4 x 40 rec 4.5 / 10
    2 x long hills with 15 min between

    week 1 I set a long hills PB and week 2 another PB on rep 1 but was signifcantly slower on rep 2 and was wasted at the end of it.

  8. #58
    Administrator Charlie Francis's Avatar
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    I think we should move this lactate discussion over to the lactate thread so everyone can follow what's actually being discussed now.

  9. #59
    Member John's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Francis
    I think we should move this lactate discussion over to the lactate thread so everyone can follow what's actually being discussed now.
    I posted a link there to this for that reason but agree it should now carry on there.

  10. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by John
    Maris,
    I'm sure other more qualified people can answer this (and may contradict me) but my understanding is that in longer sprints, especially 400m, it is very important.
    Thank you for getting back to me. It's something that is very hard to quantify, and I can't really see any science behind it, but for I think it's vital. I guess there are undoscovered theories which means at the moment, science can't explain everything. No doubt later, something will come up that can explain it! Sorry for sticking that question in this thread though.

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