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Thread: Thoughts on Charlie Francis and soccer

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Francis
    It depends on the length of the off-season, usually determined by the level of play. As a rule, the shorter the off season, the closer you stick to the left on the F/T curve of High Intensity Elements.
    You can refer to the graph on the Vancouver DVD to see the relative time frames to maximize the various H.I. elements.
    Aerobic fitness is very important so there is a higher vol of aerobic, low intensity work than there would be for the sprints or even the 400m.
    First off: Thanks for the reply Charlie! (great infor about speed reserve)

    Altought I agree with you almost completely and I had implemented/modified your system for my needs working with soccer players (hills, short-to-short, no or very small SE etc) I have couple of comments to put:
    1. It seems that you solve all problems with team athletes by prescribing tempo and speed, which is actually your sprinters do. Thus you basically copy the sprinters workouts to team athletes with little or no modification which I dislike. Please correct me if I am wrong here Charlie - not to critique you but to learn from you.

    2. We do not have off-season here as defined by westerns. We have a pause of 1month during the june, and we have a 20days break during the winter. Our preparatory period starts with team practices and thus I must implement speed/tempo/weigths/plyos into team practices and arrange with a head coaches and menagers. Thus western concept of off-season where you have athtletes free of team practice when they are able to do athletic/sprinter like training is of little use in Serbia (except maybe that 1 month, but during that time athletes goes home and their trining is not organized nor controled - its their year vacation).
    So how to modify tempo and speed in this situations?

    3. In my last post I was reffering to the research of Jens Bangsbo in which he demostrated that players who did performed SE training (mainly with a ball: 2on2 small sided duel games; hunting a ball; repeated shooting at the goal with a sprint around the cone) greatelly improved his 'field test' than players who didn't.
    Bangsbo states that: 'analysis of the matches has shown that the higher level of soccer, the more high-speed running is performed. The capacity to produce lactate and to repeately perform high-intensity excercise should therefore be specifically trained. This can be achieved trough speed endrance training'

    But tat the same time Bangsbo writes: 'However, it is recommended that this type of training is only used with top-class players, as the training is very demanding, both physically and mentally. When there is a limited amount of time aviable for training, time can be better utilized for other forms of training.'
    'Speed endurance training should have low priority and may be complitely omited for non-elite players'
    'Speed endurance training should not be used with players under 16 years of age.'

    The quotes are from 'Aerobic and anaerobic training in soccer' by Jens Bangsbo (2005/06) pp150-151.

    Looking forward to futher discussion!

  2. #22
    Member Thor's Avatar
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    3. In my last post I was reffering to the research of Jens Bangsbo in which he demostrated that players who did performed SE training (mainly with a ball: 2on2 small sided duel games; hunting a ball; repeated shooting at the goal with a sprint around the cone) greatelly improved his 'field test' than players who didn't.
    Did said players perform speed-training regularly? If not, maybe their results would be even better if they focused on that?

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by ESTI
    What would you do to address the aerobic work? Tempo <75%?
    Play the game and tempo.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevemac24
    Play the game and tempo.
    I would use tempo during the preparatory period, and only medball circuit and technical work as 'aerobic work' in in-seasons for the starters. For the bench guys tempo is ok.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thor
    Did said players perform speed-training regularly? If not, maybe their results would be even better if they focused on that?
    Bangbo reported 'in addition to normal training', without to reference to a paper/journal.

    I found this abstrack

    Effect of two different intense training regimes on skeletal muscle ion transport proteins and fatigue development.

    * Mohr M,
    * Krustrup P,
    * Nielsen JJ,
    * Nybo L,
    * Rasmussen MK,
    * Juel C,
    * Bangsbo J.
    Am J Physiol Regul Integr Comp Physiol. 2006 Dec 28;

    The purpose of the study was to examine the effect of two different intense exercise training regimes on skeletal muscle ion transport systems, performance and metabolic response to different types of exercise. Thirteen subjects were divided into two training groups: either performing repeated 6-s sprints (sprint training: ST; n=6) or 30-s runs (~130% VO2 max; speed endurance training: SET; n=7). The training in SET provoked higher (P<0.05) plasma K(+) levels and muscle lactate/H(+) accumulation. Only in SET the amount of the Na(+)/H(+) exchanger isoform 1 (31%) and Na(+)/K(+)-ATPase isoform alpha2 (68%) was elevated (P<0.05) after training. Both groups had higher (P<0.05) levels of Na(+)/K(+)-ATPase isoform beta1 and monocarboxylate transporter 1 (MCT1), but no change in MCT4 and Na(+)/K(+)-ATPase isoform alpha1. Both groups had a greater (P<0.05) accumulation of lactate during exhaustive intermittent exercise and higher (P<0.05) rates of muscle lactate decrease after exercise, but only SET had a faster increase (P<0.05) in muscle pH in recovery. ST improved (P<0.05) sprint performance, whereas SET elevated (P<0.05) performance during exhaustive continuous treadmill running. The improvement in the Yo-Yo intermittent recovery test was larger (P<0.05) in SET than ST (29% vs. 10%). Only SET had a decrease (P<0.05) in fatigue index during the repeated sprint test. In conclusion, turnover of lactate/H(+) and K(+) in muscle during exercise does affect the adaptations of some but not all related muscle ion transport proteins with training. The adaptations with training do have an effect on the metabolic response to exercise and specific improvement in work capacity. Key words: Muscle metabolites, Na+/K+ pump, intermittent exercise performance, monocarboxylate transporter, Na+/H+ exchanger.
    ---------------------------------
    Thus, SE training can be used to futher develop aerobic power, which in turn can decrease fatigue index (better recovery) in repeated sprints as indicated by this reseach.

    Once again, why do we have to be so BLACK or WHITE? Do the CF routine during the GPP and do some SE (2-3 training sessions) training during SPP....

  5. #25
    Administrator Charlie Francis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by duxx
    First off: Thanks for the reply Charlie! (great infor about speed reserve)

    Altought I agree with you almost completely and I had implemented/modified your system for my needs working with soccer players (hills, short-to-short, no or very small SE etc) I have couple of comments to put:
    1. It seems that you solve all problems with team athletes by prescribing tempo and speed, which is actually your sprinters do. Thus you basically copy the sprinters workouts to team athletes with little or no modification which I dislike. Please correct me if I am wrong here Charlie - not to critique you but to learn from you.

    2. We do not have off-season here as defined by westerns. We have a pause of 1month during the june, and we have a 20days break during the winter. Our preparatory period starts with team practices and thus I must implement speed/tempo/weigths/plyos into team practices and arrange with a head coaches and menagers. Thus western concept of off-season where you have athtletes free of team practice when they are able to do athletic/sprinter like training is of little use in Serbia (except maybe that 1 month, but during that time athletes goes home and their trining is not organized nor controled - its their year vacation).
    So how to modify tempo and speed in this situations?

    3. In my last post I was reffering to the research of Jens Bangsbo in which he demostrated that players who did performed SE training (mainly with a ball: 2on2 small sided duel games; hunting a ball; repeated shooting at the goal with a sprint around the cone) greatelly improved his 'field test' than players who didn't.
    Bangsbo states that: 'analysis of the matches has shown that the higher level of soccer, the more high-speed running is performed. The capacity to produce lactate and to repeately perform high-intensity excercise should therefore be specifically trained. This can be achieved trough speed endrance training'

    But tat the same time Bangsbo writes: 'However, it is recommended that this type of training is only used with top-class players, as the training is very demanding, both physically and mentally. When there is a limited amount of time aviable for training, time can be better utilized for other forms of training.'
    'Speed endurance training should have low priority and may be complitely omited for non-elite players'
    'Speed endurance training should not be used with players under 16 years of age.'

    The quotes are from 'Aerobic and anaerobic training in soccer' by Jens Bangsbo (2005/06) pp150-151.

    Looking forward to futher discussion!
    You CAN'T copy the sprint program directly because the sprints have Special Endurance while the soccer does not, relying instead on short bursts. Additionally, soccer requires a larger aerobic componant. for example short sprints might include 6000 to 6600 meters per week of tempo, 400m might include 9000 to 10,000 meters per week, while soccer might require approx 12,000 meters per week.
    As for moving to speed endurance training for the top athletes. this is directly in reverse of the direction seen with top level sprinters, where all general fitness avenues are exhausted, leaving more max speed as the only remaining means to better performance. Perhaps the testing is on those who are not totally aerobically fit (back to the bla discussion you pointed to earlier?)

  6. #26
    Administrator Charlie Francis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by duxx
    I would use tempo during the preparatory period, and only medball circuit and technical work as 'aerobic work' in in-seasons for the starters. For the bench guys tempo is ok.


    Bangbo reported 'in addition to normal training', without to reference to a paper/journal.

    I found this abstrack

    Effect of two different intense training regimes on skeletal muscle ion transport proteins and fatigue development.

    * Mohr M,
    * Krustrup P,
    * Nielsen JJ,
    * Nybo L,
    * Rasmussen MK,
    * Juel C,
    * Bangsbo J.
    Am J Physiol Regul Integr Comp Physiol. 2006 Dec 28;

    The purpose of the study was to examine the effect of two different intense exercise training regimes on skeletal muscle ion transport systems, performance and metabolic response to different types of exercise. Thirteen subjects were divided into two training groups: either performing repeated 6-s sprints (sprint training: ST; n=6) or 30-s runs (~130% VO2 max; speed endurance training: SET; n=7). The training in SET provoked higher (P<0.05) plasma K(+) levels and muscle lactate/H(+) accumulation. Only in SET the amount of the Na(+)/H(+) exchanger isoform 1 (31%) and Na(+)/K(+)-ATPase isoform alpha2 (68%) was elevated (P<0.05) after training. Both groups had higher (P<0.05) levels of Na(+)/K(+)-ATPase isoform beta1 and monocarboxylate transporter 1 (MCT1), but no change in MCT4 and Na(+)/K(+)-ATPase isoform alpha1. Both groups had a greater (P<0.05) accumulation of lactate during exhaustive intermittent exercise and higher (P<0.05) rates of muscle lactate decrease after exercise, but only SET had a faster increase (P<0.05) in muscle pH in recovery. ST improved (P<0.05) sprint performance, whereas SET elevated (P<0.05) performance during exhaustive continuous treadmill running. The improvement in the Yo-Yo intermittent recovery test was larger (P<0.05) in SET than ST (29% vs. 10%). Only SET had a decrease (P<0.05) in fatigue index during the repeated sprint test. In conclusion, turnover of lactate/H(+) and K(+) in muscle during exercise does affect the adaptations of some but not all related muscle ion transport proteins with training. The adaptations with training do have an effect on the metabolic response to exercise and specific improvement in work capacity. Key words: Muscle metabolites, Na+/K+ pump, intermittent exercise performance, monocarboxylate transporter, Na+/H+ exchanger.
    ---------------------------------
    Thus, SE training can be used to futher develop aerobic power, which in turn can decrease fatigue index (better recovery) in repeated sprints as indicated by this reseach.

    Once again, why do we have to be so BLACK or WHITE? Do the CF routine during the GPP and do some SE (2-3 training sessions) training during SPP....
    2 to 3 training sessions of SE over what period?
    One top Italian team, noted for high level results from a small squad does SE once every 10 days but no more.

  7. #27
    Banned TopCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Francis
    2 to 3 training sessions of SE over what period?
    One top Italian team, noted for high level results from a small squad does SE once every 10 days but no more.
    I think the real question in this debate is how much SE can you do before it starts taking away from the other important factors (either in terms of decreasing rate of acceleration or because you don't have time or resources left to train them)?

  8. #28
    Administrator Charlie Francis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopCat
    I think the real question in this debate is how much SE can you do before it starts taking away from the other important factors (either in terms of decreasing rate of acceleration or because you don't have time or resources left to train them)?
    You got it!

  9. #29
    Holy Crap!! 12000 meters of tempo per week?

    Charlie, how would you structure those workouts? I know that in the past you have stated that shorter distance runs (<200m) work better for teams sports athletes, so would you do something like 40x100m, 3x/week?

    40x100m seems like a long tempo session, although Jack Daniels uses similar sessions with his distance athletes to improve VO2 max. If I recall correctly, he sometimes prescribes 200m runs done once each minute or 100m runs done once every 30 seconds. I think the sessions are ~24 minutes long, which would be ~4800 meters. And, as with tempo, the goal is to do all of the runs at a prescribed pace.

    -Jason

  10. #30
    Administrator Charlie Francis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMT
    Holy Crap!! 12000 meters of tempo per week?

    Charlie, how would you structure those workouts? I know that in the past you have stated that shorter distance runs (<200m) work better for teams sports athletes, so would you do something like 40x100m, 3x/week?

    40x100m seems like a long tempo session, although Jack Daniels uses similar sessions with his distance athletes to improve VO2 max. If I recall correctly, he sometimes prescribes 200m runs done once each minute or 100m runs done once every 30 seconds. I think the sessions are ~24 minutes long, which would be ~4800 meters. And, as with tempo, the goal is to do all of the runs at a prescribed pace.

    -Jason
    Put two 'big circuits' together twice a week and the combo of your choice for the rest (3200m left)

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