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Thread: Sub max training for max results?

  1. #11

    Re: Sub max training for max results?

    Quote Originally Posted by JRW View Post
    Sorry to jump in so late.

    Stu clarified what he meant latter. I also saw him speak a few months after that comment.

    Degrasse had a long NCAA schedule with a lot of races over the past year or so.

    They felt the best course of action was basically to not mess him up at that point...make sure he was healthy and ready and trust the majority of training up to that point.

    So they did many sprints on grass, a lot of work over wickets, etc. Fast "sprinting", but not spiking up and hitting fly's much on the track.

    Basically by Stu's definition, on grass without competition counts as "sub-maximal". Same with sprinting over the wickets. He also clarrified that the only time you do truly max velocity work is in competition.

    Just clarifying that they weren't doing tempo or repeats or anything like that.
    My rule of thumb is that most sports requires some training at close to competition pace/intensity and in the same surface and environment.
    Keeping clear of spikes/track can cause injury on resumption of that surface - due to subtle biomechnical variations with the surface compared to grass. I have seen plenty of people struggle with achilles and calf strains when starting to run again on the track.
    I appreciate the point about true max being only in competition. Nevertheless the idea of almost achieving this from 95% efforts in training is pretty common.

    I would have thought it better for DG to recover from the previous period of heavy racing with a longer period of complete rest followed by a `gentle GPP`. Then returning to the training model that was previously successful for him.
    By the way I have a suspicion about successful young athletes achieving top class international levels then changing coaches. Why fix something that is not broken. There is an even greater example of this at Altis than DG.

  2. #12
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    Re: Sub max training for max results?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldbloke View Post
    My rule of thumb is that most sports requires some training at close to competition pace/intensity and in the same surface and environment.
    Keeping clear of spikes/track can cause injury on resumption of that surface - due to subtle biomechnical variations with the surface compared to grass. I have seen plenty of people struggle with achilles and calf strains when starting to run again on the track.
    I appreciate the point about true max being only in competition. Nevertheless the idea of almost achieving this from 95% efforts in training is pretty common.

    I would have thought it better for DG to recover from the previous period of heavy racing with a longer period of complete rest followed by a `gentle GPP`. Then returning to the training model that was previously successful for him.
    By the way I have a suspicion about successful young athletes achieving top class international levels then changing coaches. Why fix something that is not broken. There is an even greater example of this at Altis than DG.
    From what I understand they did not avoid ever working on say, blocks, curve running or speed endurance or ever spiking up and hitting the track I just thinking they shifted it away from that as far the ratio of days or workout volume.

    If Iím not clear, Iíll try again. I think their course of action was to focus on recovery and health and basic technique/fundamentals as opposed to training designed to get him faster.

    Iím definitely not an ALTIS spokesperson. But I did get the treat of hearing him talk and I feel like he filled in some holes that polarize from his social media posts.

    I kind of wonder if a good distinction of what ALTIS does is to Optimize vs. Develop. Thatís makes sense to me, but Iím not for sure it would to other people.

  3. #13

    Re: Sub max training for max results?

    Quote Originally Posted by JRW View Post
    From what I understand they did not avoid ever working on say, blocks, curve running or speed endurance or ever spiking up and hitting the track I just thinking they shifted it away from that as far the ratio of days or workout volume.
    .
    If the case, that would be reasonable. Without seeing comparative volume/frequency of speed work it would be incorrect for me to propose there was `not enough` specific speed work.

    Quote Originally Posted by JRW View Post
    I kind of wonder if a good distinction of what ALTIS does is to Optimize vs. Develop. That’s makes sense to me, but I’m not for sure it would to other people.
    I can understand that concept. My reservation is any change in training protocol risks injury/performance decline in the early days due to the simple fact of unfamiliarity. For some athletes there may be a fundamental incompatibility with a new regime. eg take a power sprinter with success from short to long and moving them to long to short with endurance bias. Possibly an extreme example, but hope it makes the point.
    Does Altis have a `house philosophy` for all athletes ? Or does it refine their original approach ?

  4. #14
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    Re: Sub max training for max results?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldbloke View Post
    If the case, that would be reasonable. Without seeing comparative volume/frequency of speed work it would be incorrect for me to propose there was `not enough` specific speed work.


    I can understand that concept. My reservation is any change in training protocol risks injury/performance decline in the early days due to the simple fact of unfamiliarity. For some athletes there may be a fundamental incompatibility with a new regime. eg take a power sprinter with success from short to long and moving them to long to short with endurance bias. Possibly an extreme example, but hope it makes the point.
    Does Altis have a `house philosophy` for all athletes ? Or does it refine their original approach ?
    From what I know, they make a big deal on everything being individualized and having different tiers of workouts depending on how they feel that day.

    I got out my notes from that Clinic with Stu. Here are the parts about Degrasse coming in:

    *Came from a program that ran fast nearly everyday (USC)

    *Was in 56 races the previous season

    *Came to Altis in Jan 16, "beat to shreds", bad feet, worn out...

    *Little bit of testing Feb-March using Freelap (flying 30's, 2.74)...just enough to get faster, but not get "injurious"

    *(McMillian) believes that you can sprint 10-15% slower than maximum and still have speed improvement adaptations.

  5. #15

    Re: Sub max training for max results?

    However, I must note that de Grasse ran 9.96 wind-adied of cource, when he was 19!! I didnt know that.... so.. what a talent he is and I think he started T&F late.. so running under 10 even with wind-aided shows that. But on the other hand..He hasnt done big frog jump sice then.. his reg.PB is 9,91... so....
    Quote Originally Posted by bmarcho1 View Post
    Discuss.

    https://twitter.com/StuartMcMillan1/...97966712221696


    Stuart McMillan‏Verified account @StuartMcMillan1FollowFollow
    @StuartMcMillan1

    For those who think you have to sprint maximally to get faster - not once all year did De Grasse sprint at maximal speed ...

    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    Thoughts?

  6. #16

    Re: Sub max training for max results?

    I just got around to watching the Drake Relays, where a few of ALTIS guys were in the mix (DeGrasse, Ujah, and Webb). None of them really looked all that impressive. With a 1.9 m/s wind, the results were:

    10.02 Isiah Young
    10.02 Mike Rogers
    10.13 CJ Ujah
    10.15 Andre DeGrasse
    10.19 Brandon Carnes
    10.20 Ameer Webb

  7. #17

    Re: Sub max training for max results?

    Wow, and DeGrasse just got destroyed last night:

    https://youtu.be/qDFgUDF9nOU

  8. #18
    Administrator Angela Coon's Avatar
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    Re: Sub max training for max results?

    Quote Originally Posted by Actuary400m View Post
    I just got around to watching the Drake Relays, where a few of ALTIS guys were in the mix (DeGrasse, Ujah, and Webb). None of them really looked all that impressive. With a 1.9 m/s wind, the results were:

    10.02 Isiah Young
    10.02 Mike Rogers
    10.13 CJ Ujah
    10.15 Andre DeGrasse
    10.19 Brandon Carnes
    10.20 Ameer Webb
    I still can't believe the DeGrasse missed World Champs and Commonwealth Games. Okay, I get that Commonwealth Games does not matter in the grand scheme of things but I still find this puzzling in the ex?treme.

    Interesting results. What were the relay times? I am guessing the 6 you mentioned are Altis guys and then there were 2 more making up 2 relays

  9. #19
    Administrator Angela Coon's Avatar
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    Re: Sub max training for max results?

    What the?

    He wasn't even in the mix.

  10. #20

    Re: Sub max training for max results?

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Coon View Post
    Interesting results. What were the relay times? I am guessing the 6 you mentioned are Altis guys and then there were 2 more making up 2 relays
    Those were the top 6 places in the race (I didn't copy over 7th and 8th). The ALTIS guys were 3, 4, and 6 in that list. Young and Rogers took it to them, and Rogers is 33 now!

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